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    The following is a podcast from Ballinran Entertainment.

    Craig Thompson (00:00:06):

    Hello, it's Craig Thompson, and this is the Stratford Slice.

    [music]

    He's a painter, a musician, and a performer who is boldly going where no legally blind actor has gone before, today on the Stratford Slice

    [music]

    Believe it or not, there's a strong connection between Stratford and Star Trek. Of course, William Shatner graced the stage of the Stratford Festival almost 70 years ago before heading off to Broadway with a touring company and being discovered in the early days of television. And that led about 10 years later to, uh, Star Trek, the original series in Bill's footsteps. There were people like Christopher Plum who played Chang in undiscovered country. There was William Hot, Douglas Campbell, Lauren Green, Francis Highland, James Mason, and Bill Needles. And now there's Bruce Hoak, and he's sitting across from me today at the table. Welcome, Bruce.

    Bruce Horak (00:01:15):

    Thank you very much for having me, Craig.

    Craig (00:01:17):

    Now you play Engineer Hammer on the new series, Star Trek, Strange New Worlds, which is actually a prequel to the original series, correct?

    Bruce (00:01:27):

    That is correct, yes. Uh, Strange New Worlds takes place, I believe, about 10 years before Kirk takes over as the captain of the enterprise. It follows the adventures of Cadet Uhura and, uh, Science Officer Spock, who's not the number one yet, and, uh, Captain Christopher Pike and the, uh, various and sundry crew members who we get to meet along the way.

    Craig (00:01:49):

    Now we go back 30 years or so to Star Trek, the next, uh, generation when LeVar Burton played a blind, uh, Helmsman named Laforge. And he initially had a visor and then had prosthetic implants. But LeVar Burton, as we know, is not, uh, legally blind, but was playing a legally blind character. You are legally blind and you're now playing, uh, a character who is legally blind. It's interesting how things have shifted over the last 30 years.

    Bruce (00:02:21):

    Yeah, the, when the call went out for, for the, the casting, they were looking specifically for actors who were blind or visually impaired to play a blind alien and on Star Trek. And so when I, when that sort of crossed my desk, I said, Yes, please put me in, Put me in Coach, I'm ready. And, uh, you know, the, the, the audition process and everything was, they, they spoke very openly and candidly about the, the type of actor they were looking for and to bring some of that lived experience. The character, uh, while doesn't have the use of his eyes, he's got this extreme telepathy. So he is actually able to see better than, than, uh, anyone else on the, on the bridge or on the, on the ship. So in a way, I'm, I'm actually playing a bit of a superhero, which was kind of nice.

    Craig (00:03:05):

    Tell me, uh, about how it came across your desk. What, uh, was it random? Like how did you, uh, first encounter the Star Trek opportunity?

    Bruce (00:03:13):

    Well, it was through my agent, uh, Chris Oldfield in Toronto. He gets all the casting breakdowns and when he saw that, he, he sent it to me and said, We should probably go for this. And, and being that it was Star Trek, I immediately got very excited, cuz I've been, I've been raised on Star Trek, it's in my blood, really. Um, my dad was a high school, uh, English teacher, and he actually took a year off, took a sabbatical and wrote a master's thesis on teaching science fiction in high schools. So we got a, we got big doses of sci-fi at home watching the original series in reruns and then Next Generation when it came out. So yeah, it was a real love of it. And, uh, and just, you know, the optimism of the, of the franchise is just so powerful, um, the message of hope that it brings out. So the opportunity to jump into Star Trek was just, yeah, it was kind of a no brainer.

    Craig (00:04:01):

    What about that opportunity, about the lived experience you talked about, like 30 years ago, anybody could play anybody, but now we realize that we have to represent diversity of ability and cultures in everything we do, and that must have been such a, Wow, pinch me. Am I really here?

    Bruce (00:04:19):

    Oh, every day. Every day. It's, it's, uh, it's, it's pretty exciting. And, and, you know, to, to speak to that, um, you know, the cultural shift, it, you know, seeing that within my lifetime has been really exciting. And, and, you know, to be honest, a little challenging as well. I mean, I got into performing and acting because I like to play other people, you know, I, I I, I get a great deal of, of joy and there's a, there's, um, an element of, I guess, compassion that takes over when you step into somebody else's shoes and you see the world from somebody else's perspective. And, and that really excites me as a performer. I have done some shows where I just stand on stage as myself and speak, which feels more like public speaking and a presentation, then acting, You know, acting is transforming yourself. I remember seeing, um, Daniel Day Lewis in My Left Foot, for instance, and he plays Christie Brown, who's a disabled painter.

    Bruce (00:05:12):

    And I think I was probably 14 or 15 when I saw that movie just starting to get into the world of paint myself. And, uh, seeing Daniel Day Lewis completely transform himself on screen, I was convinced, I, I was certain that they had found an actor who was disabled, and then I saw him get up and receive an Academy Award. I'm like, Wait a minute, what the, but that, that sort of, uh, transformation was just so powerful. And I, that's really what attracted me into getting on stage and, and playing other characters, you know, playing Richard III or playing, you know, I was in, I was in college and I played, uh, Reverend Eli Jenkins in Under Milk Wood, who's this old Welshman, you know? And so you get to kind of step into these other roles and transform yourself. And now the, the shift towards, um, authenticity in a way takes away that opportunity from the actor.

    Bruce (00:06:04):

    Um, you, you can't step out on stage unless you have that lived experience. I mean, there's a real, there's a real cutting off of opportunity for those levels of, uh, expression transformation. And ultimately for the performer, it's, it's, uh, an exercise and compassion and empathy. And the audience can either choose to go on that journey and accept this, or they can kind of fold their arms and say, Well, that's not real. But it's a bit like watching the opening of Star Wars and, and immediately saying, Yeah, right. <laugh>, you know, in a way it's like, it's, it's this kind of, uh, harsh skepticism that, um, yeah, I, I, I hope at some point anyway, we can move beyond that. But the experience with Star Trek here, I am actually still getting to transform. I'm, I'm sitting for three and a half hours in a makeup chair and having 15 pieces of prosthetic put on, and then pretending that I can, you know, read people's thoughts and walk down a corridor without bumping into anything. So there's still, even within the authenticity of the casting, there's an opportunity for me as an actor to, uh, to transform.

    Craig (00:07:05):

    I wanna go back to your childhood, because …

    Bruce (00:07:09):

    Me too.

    Craig (00:07:10):

    You were <laugh> you wanna wind back the clock. Um, you weren't born, um, blind, but you had childhood cancer, Is that correct?

    Bruce (00:07:17):

    That's right, yeah. So I was, um, I believe about 18 months of age when they discovered that there was cancer in my eyes. Um, and my right eye was removed completely because the, the retina was covered in tumors and the left eye, there were just three little tumors on the, on the retina. And initially what they were gonna do was remove the eye completely. But, um, my parents kinda stepped in and said, Can you save some of his eyesight? Anything? So, um, my doctor in Calgary said, Well, they're doing this radical radiation treatment in Toronto. We'll, we'll see if we can get you an appointment. And my mom stopped the doctor right there and said, Call him. Call him right now. I'll give you the money. And you get on the, on the phone and you call the doctor and sat in that office and the doctor called right away and they, they set up this treatment.

    Bruce (00:08:01):

    So mom and me flew to Toronto and dad stayed home with my three older brothers. And I went off to Toronto for radiation treatment. And the, they figured what would happen was that scar tissue would develop over the reman. I might have some perception of light and shadow, but by this happy accident, this little window is in the middle of my retina that's clear of scar tissue, um, a cataract develop as a result of the radiation treatment. So they remove my lens when I was about four and a half years old. So I have roughly 9% vision. So that accounts for visual acuity, what I can see clearly, and then visual field as well. So I see like looking down a, a straw through a murky glass of water.

    Craig (00:08:43):

    Wow.

    Bruce (00:08:43):

    Yeah. And that's, that's been my normal since I was four and a half years old.

    Craig (00:08:47):

    Well, as long as you remember, obviously, cuz your memory wouldn't be much before that. Yeah. So that probably led to you following the creative path cuz you must have created the imaginary worlds that you couldn't see. What would you have done do you think, if your life had you not, uh, been blind? Were there other avenues you thought, Oh, I'm good at math or computers or, or why creativity?

    Bruce (00:09:12):

    Well I come from a very creative family. Um, I mentioned my dad was a high school English teacher. He was also a drama teacher and an amateur cartoonist. And he collected comic books since he was a kid. So he had a study in the basement where he would go and mark papers and it was Florida Ceiling with old comic books, You know, he had action comics, number one, the first appearance of Batman. He had all these classics and he also collected, uh, the old comic pages that used to be the full size, you know, um, and he bound those in books. And I remember lying on the books and getting about an inch away from the artist to read it. And, uh, things like Prince Valiant and all, yeah, all these wonderful old comic strips. So that was really in the blood. We were always encouraged to draw and paint.

    Bruce (00:09:54):

    And, um, Mom is a, uh, is a writer and is a painter as well, and a singer. And so there is music and art and, and drama in the house. Um, well, yeah, four boys, of course there was drama. But, um, we, you know, we family gatherings we would put on a play. And, uh, my oldest brother is an actor and a director. And, um, my second oldest brother is a musician and the brother who's a year older than me is a visual artist as well. So the creative path was certainly, um, laid out pretty strongly and it was terrible in school. So <laugh> it seemed like the arts were, uh, kind of predestined whether I was visually impaired or not.

    Craig (00:10:35):

    Well, let's talk about your painting because you have managed to merge painting with performance and with, with music. So tell me, what is the intersection of those multidisciplinary arts that you have? What do you think is the most dominant one? And then how did they intersect?

    Bruce (00:10:52):

    Well, I started, yeah, I, well, so going back, I, I was really interested in music, um, as a kid. So I took guitar and piano lessons and drum lessons all the way up until high school. Um, got involved in theater in probably grade six or so. I think I did my first play and was writing from the time I was in grade three. Um, and always drawing, always doodling. Uh, it was something I would do to pass the time instead of, uh, learning in school. And, uh, so all of that sort of creative stuff was just always coming out and, and we were never really asked to choose anything. So whenever the impulse would strike, I would just go off and do that. And then as we got into high school, um, it started to have to choose less and less options. So I dropped music in favor of theater and art class.

    Bruce (00:11:44):

    And then when I got to, I think the end of grade 11, um, my, uh, art teacher said that she wasn't sure that there was a post-secondary education, uh, facility that would know what to do with a blind kid. She said, I can teach you to do basic fundamentals, but beyond that, I'm not sure how much further you're actually gonna be able to go with this. And so I ended up dropping art class in favor of, uh, uh, drama class in grade 12. But I was also playwriting and, and whatever I, um, yeah, and I started to pursue the playwriting field in high school as well. And for me it was a little safer than getting on stage. Um, and certainly in front of a camera that always terrified me cuz I knew that on camera, my eyes. I mean, it's, it's very obvious that, that my eyes are, uh, unusual, shall we say, outside the mean.

    Bruce (00:12:39):

    And, um, so I, I like the stuff behind the scenes. I, I really like to perform and I really like to entertain. And on stage I can get far enough away and I can rehearse it enough that no one can tell. But I thought, um, you know, no one's ever heard of a blind actor before, so maybe that's not really an option for myself. I put that limitation on myself. And, uh, same with the visual art, really it was, you know, someone said, Well, I don't know how to teach you. And so I immediately thought, well that's obviously, that's not a, a direction I can go. And, um, then what happened? Well, after high school I got a, a job working at Alberta Theater Projects in Calgary. It was a junior apprentice position. So for $75 a week I got to work in the office.

    Bruce (00:13:22):

    I got to work in every department, the art department, the, I got to read scripts, I got to go backstage, I got to work with the stage management and just do absolutely everything in that year. And honestly, that one year I met some of my, uh, like to this day, my mentors, I, I met in that year, people that I still work with, colleagues and friends and associates in that one year. And I had a, um, a playwriting mentor who said to me, cause I, I had gotten accepted to Concordia University in Montreal in the playwriting course. And I got accepted to work at a year as for a year at Alberta Theater Projects. And my playwriting mentor, Dan Lipman said, Well, if I had to give you the, the piece of advice that I wish someone had given me, it's that it really doesn't matter where you go to school, it's gonna be about the people you meet.

    Bruce (00:14:11):

    And it's gonna be about the, the colleagues that you, uh, get along with and if you're the kind of person that they wanna work with. So be the kind of person who gets invited into the room. And I thought, well, I'm gonna go to Montreal and meet a bunch of other students and maybe some teachers in Montreal, but ATP, I've been seeing shows there since I was in junior high and high school. I wanna work here and I wanna work with these people. So I just stayed in Calgary for that year and honestly it was completely transformative From there. I went to a two year program at Mount Royal College, which was a conservatory program where I ended up working with and meeting again more people that I still work with to this day. And it was the decision, I think, to stay in Calgary and foster those relationships that has led me to, yeah, exploring beyond it. And, um, and I, I go back to Calgary at least once a year, if not to work, then just to, just to uh, nurture that, uh, those roots cuz yeah, it means a lot to me.

    Craig (00:15:09):

    So all those decades of varied experience, when you walked onto the set of Star Trek, experienced new worlds for the first time, you knew all the departments, you knew the backstory, you knew, not the backstory of your character, but I'm more of the, how the operation wasn't unfamiliar to you.

    Bruce (00:15:24):

    Well, film is really different from TV or from, uh, theater I should say. Excuse me. Um, yeah, Star Trek was really my first time on a, on a big shoot like that. I've done some independent stuff, but that, the size of it was absolutely enormous. Um, I, yeah, I'm certainly familiar with the departments, but not to the extent that there's assistance and assistance to the assistance and, and all of that. I was actually quite nervous showing up on the first day because there was so much, uh, that did seem unfamiliar. The, just the size of it.

    Craig (00:16:01):

    This is in Mississauga too.

    Bruce (00:16:03):

    They were shooting, yeah, they were shooting at the CBS, uh, I can't remember what the studio- CBS Canada stages in Mississauga. And I expressed that I think maybe in my first or second, uh, Zoom audition. I said, Well, uh, just so you know, like, I don't, I don't have much experience with this and I'm really gonna need some help on this set. And they were right away with somebody. So as soon as I showed up, I had an assistant who would meet me at the, at the van and walk me to where I needed to go with the covid testing and then over to the trailer and, and just somebody with me every step of the way, right up until, right up until, and including when they said action, you know, they would walk me where the camera was gonna be, It's gonna move like this, and here's where your eye line has to be. And there was just so much care taken around that, that I never once felt like I'm, I'm having to wing it or I'm having to fake it or any of that. Um, yeah, and it really, it really made me feel confident and, uh, very comfortable in that environment.

    Craig (00:16:59):

    So walking onto the set of Star Trek for the first time was, must have been a phenomenal experience.

    Bruce (00:17:03):

    It truly was. Yeah. Yeah. I, I, I think it was probably halfway through the shooting of the first season that the penny actually dropped that this was real <laugh> cuz I would just be shaking my head and pinching myself every time. Like I remember the first, uh, camera test that I did. So it was five and a half hours in the makeup chair to test the prosthetics to work them out. And then they brought me into, uh, the set of the bridge of the enterprise to put me in front of a camera and see how it was all gonna look. And I, they said, say something. And I think I just went, Oh, <laugh>, maybe a tear came down my cheek.

    Craig (00:17:42):

    Tell me about the prosthetics that you're wearing. What is the look that they're trying to achieve with Hemmer?

    Bruce (00:17:48):

    Hemmer is an Andorean, uh, which is a species that has, that's typically blue and they have antenna on their head and they're, and the en r which is the subspecies, they're the albino version that lives in the ice caves of northern Andor, uh, so we're totally white and we have antenna. And, um, yeah, it's 15 pieces of prosthetics, beginning with a wig cap or a bald cap, and then cheeks and eyes and forehead and ridges and sort of spikes coming out of my, uh, out of my, uh, eyebrows. And then, uh, pieces on the hands as well. So totally pale. And uh, what was interesting, um, about the eyes was that in the early days, they wanted to put these contact lenses that would light out my, my pupils. So I went in, uh, for one of the tests and they brought me to a, an eye doctor in Toronto, a specialist who did a quick exam.

    Bruce (00:18:41):

    And we talked about my, my vision history. And, uh, then the, the contact lens people came in and they, they, so the thing was with, with the makeup on the hands, I wouldn't be able to put them in myself, so would it be somebody else putting the lens in? And that immediately just made me cringe. And like, uh, and then the taking out of it was even worse, but once the lens got in, like my eye immediately went red and I then it was offset. And so I couldn't see, and the doctor kind of pulled me aside and said, Look, you got, you got 9% that's working great for you right now. Well, let's not mess it up. And again, the production side of Star Trek just stepped right in and they were like, No problem, we will do it in post. And so the look at, and I didn't actually like when we shot it, it was my eyes, but they've gone through and every single frame they've digitally changed so that Hemmer's eyes are totally white and they look phenomenal.

    Bruce (00:19:32):

    I'm just, and and it's one of those things that for me as a disabled performer is a total dream because I've always been concerned with the way that my eyes look on camera and that I can't hide this and this was gonna be an issue. And here they've given me a brand new set of eyes and it leads me to thinking about, you know, Daniel Day Lewis, who was an able bodied actor who could transform himself physically and convince you that he was disabled. And now we have the technology where a disabled performer can do a performance and can convince you that they are not who they truly are. So there's that transformation again and a dream of the time when we're gonna see someone in a wheelchair and we'll be convinced that they're dancing. We're getting there.

    Craig (00:20:11):

    You talked earlier about bringing some of your own lived experience to the character. It's not just, here's the script, uh, do it. What have you brought, uh, to the character of Hemmer that maybe the producers didn't anticipate for the writers?

    Bruce (00:20:29):

    I think where I went with it was, um, in a physicality that is, uh, a little bit more, what's the word, I guess? Well, okay, that sort of, was

    Craig (00:20:45):

    There some teaching you had to do to the,

    Bruce (00:20:46):

    No, I wouldn't say there was teaching, but I think it was, I, I think it was, um, in the way that a person with a visual disability moves through the world, we tend to turn up our hearing a bit and we tend to be a little slower in our pacing. There's a, a caution which comes from a visual disability in a physical space, um, which can read as, uh, maybe an aloofness or a disinterest or whatever. And so when, then it's the comment that I'm getting the most about the character of Hemmer is, I always seem so grumpy, he seems so, I'm like, well, yeah, but there's also, like, I'm listening in a different way and for me, I, I listen differently with my ears, or shall we say, people say, Well, is your hearing better? Is your sense of smell better is your, or whatever. I don't know that it's better. I just think I use it in a different way because I'm relying on it better, or, or I'm relying on it more. And I think if you're to amp that up into this character with telepathy, well then there's, there's gonna be another level of listening in a different way. So to me, that translates into a physical presence. And also, yeah, his, his, uh, his demeanor and overall verbal vocal expression is perhaps a little harsher.

    Craig (00:21:58):

    So the telepathy you use to read other people's energy that's coming off them and try to understand them more in that way. Is that how the telepathy works?

    Bruce (00:22:07):

    Well, it, it's a little bit of that. They, the Andor, have a strict code that they won't read anyone's thoughts. So he's really strict about that. But the telepathy is also used to read a space, to read a screen. So obviously, like he's an engineer, so there's a lot of visual information that's coming off of these screens. And I thought, well, how is he possibly gonna read it in unless it's tactile or if it's that other way. And I thought, well, actually for me, if I want to say, see if the stove is on, I don't have to touch the stove to know that it's on. I can just hold my hand over it and you can feel the heat coming off of it with my hand. Well, if I had telepathy, I wouldn't have to use my hand. I would just be able to feel the heat coming off of the stove in the same way. Then if we extrapolate by 250 years, here's a character that has enhanced telepathy. So he's able to just feel, say the heat coming off of a of screen and where, and even maybe be able to read the color or be able to read the intensity or the vibration of it. And so a screen to him would just be another incredibly, uh, rich but tactile sensation that he's able to read without touching.

    Craig (00:23:13):

    Now working with the other cast members on Star Trek: Strange New Worlds must have been a learning experience for them as well. So what do you think they gained from perhaps the first time working with a, a legally blind actor in the way production, uh, took place and blocking and scenes and things like that? You mentioned how you move and things like that.

    Bruce (00:23:34):

    Yeah. One of the things that I asked for, uh, really on my very first day was that when people address me, that they just say their name so that I know who's talking cuz I don't see faces. So that became a bit of a culture on set, was that people would say, Bruce, it's Rebecca or Bruce, it's Ansen. And, and that way I would know who is, who is speaking to me. And that, that translated all the way, like through pretty much every department that, um, that cultural shift. And I, I gotta tell you, that made things so much easier. Cause I wasn't having to guess or pretend like, Oh, I know who you are until like three minutes after the conversation's done. It's like, oh, right, that voice sounds familiar.

    Craig (00:24:08):

    I think I know who you are. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah. Now what about the, the fan culture? Now, Star Trek of course, has a huge fan culture. There's memory Alpha. Yeah, there's, uh, Star Trek conventions all over North America in the world. What has been your taste of the reaction when they cast you and your character of Hemmer?

    Bruce (00:24:29):

    Well, the announcement came out on Star Trek Day, which was back in October. And it was about 30 seconds after the announcement was made that my Facebook started lighting up and messages of congratulations. I think one of the very first messages I got was just a welcome to the family, which was so lovely. And then, um, you know, bits and pieces as the, as the rollout was happening. And then I got invited to the premier in New York, uh, which was I think on May 2nd. So it came just, just a couple of days before it launched, um, on Paramount Plus. And it wa I, you know, honestly, Craig, I felt the moment that my life changed and it was got to New York, went Friday, Friday night, stated this crazy nice hotel, uh, right downtown Saturday morning I woke up and I'd heard that, um, that the 14th Street subway station ha was totally dedicated to Star Trek, Strange New Worlds.

    Bruce (00:25:27):

    So I walked from my hotel all the way through Times Square and there was this enormous like, I don't know, 15 story flashing billboard with Anson and Rebecca and Celia and, um, and Ethan Peck on it. Strange New Worlds kind of flashing over Times Square. And I thought, Okay, that's really cool. And then I went all the way down to 14th Street and went to the subway and it was at like every pillar, every wall had a poster or a character and there was me like oversized on a pillar, the Hemmer look and on these on the walls. And I just kind of went and the subway station was mostly kind of empty and I just kind of wander around to photos of it. And then the, the event wasn't happening until four o'clock. So I, I went back to the hotel room and I just kind of prepared myself for the day and at one point I was just getting so agitated, so I left the hotel to go for a walk and I hear “Bruce, Bruce, Bruce!”

    Bruce (00:26:18):

    And there is these fans and they, they recognize me. I'm not in my prosthetics or anything. So they, they'd obviously been waiting there for a while, “Bruce!”, and they rush over and they've got stacks of photographs of the character and the posters and like, we, we, we don't wanna bother you. We know you're on on your walk. We know you've got the event tonight, but do you have time to sign a couple of things. And I was like, uh, and then a selfie. And it was, and I, and my face must have just been like totally gobsmacked. And I just stood there and, and signed these autographs and had the most wonderful chats. I mean the, there were I think maybe three four of them, um, these fellas. And we just chatted about Star Trek and about the show and they were so excited about it coming out and, uh, you know, they were gonna try to sneak in and see the premiere that night. And have you, have you heard about the costume exhibit? And Yeah. And then since then, it's just been, um, every day getting another message. And I'm spending probably an hour every morning on social media and email just responding to the fans who are reaching out there. They love this show and It's very much a relationship.

    Craig (00:27:21):

    The fans are part, uh, they're engaged and invested in how the characters develop. What, what they should do next.

    Bruce (00:27:30):

    And, and you know, it's, it's funny that the power that the fans have had, I just, I think I just, uh, can't remember the name of this documentary, but it was a documentary about, uh, the making of Star Trek and how it, it had actually been canceled. It was slated to be canceled, I think either after the first or second season. And there was a letter writing-

    Craig (00:27:47):

    The original series.

    Bruce (00:27:47):

    The original series, Yes. Yeah. And there was a letter writing campaign that actually brought it back for I think at least another season. Um, so that, you know, that's the seeds of the fan base. But even up until Strange New Worlds, there was, um, three of the characters, the, the captain and Uhura and Spock were introduced in season two of Discovery. And there was a huge outpouring of love for those characters after that and a demand for we wanna see that show. And it was really the momentum of the fans that's brought it to where it is. And I, and you can tell I think from the writing in this show, the incredible attention to detail and what stories they're writing, how they're writing the stories that like this is a fan forward show, <laugh>. Like it's really all about them. And honestly, to be bringing that level of joy to that many people, it's just, uh, yeah. I I couldn't be happier.

    (00:28:46):

    You're listening to the Stratford Slice with Craig Thompson. Check out our website, thestratfordslice.com and be sure to subscribe. And now back to the show.

    Craig (00:28:58):

    Well, I watched Star Trek as a kid and I, I wouldn't say I'm a a Star Trek fan, but I watched all of the programs and I have to tell you, I was at, uh, Star Trek convention in Las Vegas a few years ago filming with William Shatner, cuz we were doing The Captains, a documentary, at the time, and I couldn't believe like there was tens of thousands of people. Yeah. And he would just walk through the casino and through the floor and people would mob him and Oh yeah. The say hi and then they'd line up for hours for for autographs. Yeah. And he now, until recently, I'm sure he is still doing it now, but until recently he was doing a road show every year going to all the different Star Trek conventions where he just makes these appearances and signs the fans outstanding.

    Craig (00:29:41):

    And this is like 60 years after the 50 plus years after the original series went on, and a series that he kind of poo-pooed for a long time until, you know, this fan culture, which didn't really exist in the sixties and seventies, that really just, it came up when the first motion pictures, but Star Trek didn't really solidify, I don't think, until Star Trek the next generation, uh, came out. And even that, as you had mentioned, the first season was sort of iffy, but it just took off after season two or three, and that's really when the franchise was cemented. I don't, I don't, I don't think there's any other franchise that I can think of that has said such a, and perhaps it's because of the loyalty to science fiction and the, and the scientific, uh, elements that Gene Roddenberry, uh, wanted to bring into the series. He didn't wanna make some sort of dune or far off a mythical thing. He wanted to have it rooted in humanity. Yeah. And that sort of where Star Trek, and speaking of Gene Roddenberry Rod, his son Yeah. Is one of the executive producers of Star Trek. That's right. Strange New Worlds. Did you get a chance to meet him?

    Bruce (00:30:48):

    I did, yeah. It was, uh, very early days, um, while I was still doing prosthetic tests, but yeah. Yeah.

    Craig (00:30:54):

    Did you, did he tell you any stories or share anything with you?

    Bruce (00:30:57):

    No, it was, it was very, very quick. We were, uh, I mean that's, that's the thing about that first season, especially shooting, we were under pretty heavy Covid. Yeah. Yeah. So it was a very, it was a socially distanced <laugh> meeting

    Speaker 2 (00:31:10):

    Was, um, the character of Hemmer, originally going to be the size and importance as it is now. Do you see that changing? And where is it, I’m not asking for spoilers, but I'm just wondering, do you see that character as becoming, uh, are you hoping that character is, uh, going to continue in importance based on what the reactions from fans are? What do you think?

    Bruce (00:31:34):

    Well, I'll say this much, uh, without giving anything away about the, the next, the, the rest of the season here. Um, but, uh, I was told a lot of details about the character in my, in during my audition process. Um, my final audition was with showrunner, uh, Henry Lonzo Myers. And we had a really fantastic conversation about, uh, actually it was about Spock and it was about the, the other characters on the, on the show and how people tend to relate to them, um, and how, uh, what the, yeah. What the importance of Hammer was going to be to, to the crew and to specifically to Uhura. And we see that in the first few episodes where Uhura isn't sure of her place in Star Fleet, and there's Hammer who's kind of the, the WHI aged, um, you know, crochety engineer and how they develop their relationship over the time and, and kind of his principles as a pacifist. Um, and, you know, some of the challenges that he's going to, he's gonna have to face as a pacifist in a, in a, I mean, it's as a ship of exploration and science and goodwill and all that, but they still get into situations where they're having to fight and sew conflict

    Craig (00:32:44):

    Yeah.

    Bruce (00:32:44):

    Yeah. Putting him into that, into that mix is, uh, yeah. I find that particularly interesting.

    Craig (00:32:50):

    When the first start trek came out in the 1960s, we were in the middle of the Vietnam War, there was the Civil rights movement, there was assassinations of presidents and Martin Luther King. So, and Gene Roddenberry's humanist, uh, principles sort of informed, you talked about pacifism and, and spreading peace. We're now, uh, you know, 50, 60 years, uh, later, Star Trek, Strange New World's takes place before the original Star Trek. But what is the connection between what's happening in the world today and some of the storylines that are being explored in the series?

    Bruce (00:33:23):

    Well, right from the very first episode, um, we're getting some pretty, pretty serious commentary on the state of the world. We see, uh, the enterprise visits a planet that is basically on the edge of annihilating themselves with nuclear weapons. And the captain shows up and kind of shows them what that future will look like. And he begins with showing kind of a, a video montage of the history of the, of, of Earth. And they're planted directly in the middle of that montage are the January six riots. And moving into, you know, kind of an imagined future of what this kind of division, what this kind of inhumanity to each other will, will lead to. Um, I think the, the message that well, all of the Star Trek franchises put out is that we have to figure a way to work together. And that only by working together, by listening to each other, by allowing for voices to be heard, are we gonna get beyond this kind of division. And, you know, me and mine and to ours.

    Craig (00:34:32):

    Let's get off Star Trek for a moment. I wanna talk about your painting. Sure. Um, and Assassinating Thomson. Ah, yes. Uh, Tom Thomson to be, uh, specific the artist and the

    Speaker 4 (00:34:44):

    No p

    Craig (00:34:45):

    Exactly. I'm the, I'm the Wet Thompson. He's the dry one. That's right. But, uh, we have this lore about Tom Thomson. Uh, he was, he was the precursor to the group of seven, and of course, he drowned under mysterious circumstances in, uh, Algonquin Park. Yeah. Um, what attracted you? What was the story that you were, you are, or were trying to tell with Assassinating Thomson, and why did you call it Assassinating Thomson when he was already dead?

    Bruce (00:35:14):

    That's a very good question. I, um, so little backstory on the creation of the show. I, I was commissioned a number of years ago by the Glen Bow Museum in Calgary, Alberta to write a 45 minute two person sort of comedy sketch, music review show about the history of Canadian art. So they wanted a five minutes fast and light and funny for kids, you know, grades five, six, and seven. And that was when I was given the research, research materials, the sort of dusty tones on Canadian art. And, uh, that's really when I first encountered the story of Tom Thomson. And I found it fascinating, just the various kind of, uh, ideas, the clues, the mystery around it, but also his work. It's just, yeah, it was really striking. Um, and then kind of flash forward about, oh, I don't know, maybe 10 years.

    Bruce (00:36:07):

    And I got the opportunity to tour a fringe show across the country. And my director in collaborator, Ryan Gladstone out in Vancouver, called me and said, Okay, we, we just got into the lottery for all these shows. What do you wanna do? How about something about Tom Thomson? I said, Sure, let's, let's give it a shot. So I wrote, over the year, I started researching, and I wrote a one person show that was kind of a mystery where Tom's brother goes up to Algonquin Park and tries to solve the mystery with all me playing all of the various characters in the various ideas. Um, and it was, yeah, I got some pretty heavy notes on that particular version. It wasn't terribly good. But, uh, at the same time that I was working on this play one person show, I was also painting portraits, and I was painting portraits specifically because people would ask me, How do you do what you do?

    Bruce (00:36:55):

    How do you see? And so I would say, Well, come, come over, sit for an hour. We'll have a cup of tea and I'll, I'll throw some, some paint on a canvas and see if I can capture the way that I see. And I was probably around portrait number 400 at the time. It was just doing them mostly just kind of for fun and, and a great way to chat with people. But inevitably, over the course of a portrait sitting, people would say, How did you get into painting? And who are your influences and how do you see? And so really it seemed like those first 400 portraits were me rehearsing for what would become Assassinating Thomson. The day before I started rehearsals, and I was really hating the script I had written, I sat with a friend of mine, uh, in Vancouver, and I did a portrait, and I just basically answered questions for the portrait sitting.

    Bruce (00:37:40):

    Next day, I get to the rehearsal hall and I said to Ryan, I'm like, I'm throwing out the script. And we had 10 days in a, in a rehearsal hall at the, uh, University of BC. And, uh, I said, And I just wanna, I'm gonna spend the morning, I'm gonna paint your portrait and talk, and then we'll go for lunch, and then we'll do notes, and then I'll go off and, you know, go to the beach or something. So for 10 days, this is, this is how we rehearse the show. It was, uh, it's intended to be a conversation. It's intended to be a portrait sitting. It should feel like just going to an artist studio and, and having a, having a hangout. Um, I lace in the story of Tom Thomson because he is an influence of mine, but there's a lot of really weird coincidences between his life and mine. Uh, we have the same birthday, August 5th, he lived at Young and Wellesley in Toronto, which is roughly where I lived. And one of the people who suspected of having murdered Tom Thomson was a man named Shannon Fraser, which was the name of my high school girlfriend.

    Bruce (00:38:42):

    Spooky. Yeah. Um, he started painting at about, like, really seriously painting at about, uh, 33 or 34 years of age, and was 39 when he died. I was roughly 33 when I started painting. And I turned 39 the same summer that I, I toured the show. And so for my 39th birthday, uh, we happened to be in Ontario and some friends and I went up to Canoe Lake in Algonquin Park, and we had a little, we, we spent two nights up there camping. I really wanted to see the supposed grave at the Canoe Lake Cemetery. I wanted to go over to Tom Thomson Island. And we had a really great time just camping and, and hanging out. And, uh, we we had, it's, so the, the deal, is it at Canoe Lake in Algonquin Park for those of you traveling? Is that It's, uh, that cemetery is on private property and you can't actually go up there.

    Bruce (00:39:35):

    And when we checked in, we didn't know this, we went to the ranger station and I asked the Ranger, I'm like, Can you show us where the grave is? He says, Private property, you can't go there. But in the Rangers station, there was a whole bookshelf of books, and there's a copy of Northern Light by Roy McGregor sitting on the bookshelf, which I had just finished reading. I knew that in the inside cover of that was a hand drawn map of Canoe Lake with a little x where the cemetery was. So I took a photo of it on my phone, and then I sent Roy McGregor 10 bucks for copyright infringement. Kidding. And, uh, the next day we snuck sort of through the woods and we found the graveyard, and I went up to the top of the hill and got to sit where Tom Thomson, apparently allegedly, allegedly, allegedly, is buried.

    Bruce (00:40:19):

    Um, Why Assassinating Thomson? It's, that's kind of an interesting question because the title of the show changes as I do it. As I talk about the history of the show, I, I go through that process of writing the musical, writing the one person show, and the various titles that were coming up. I was calling it, you know, Fishing for Thompson, or a Brush With Death, or, you know, all these horrible titles were coming to mind. And I settled on Assassinating Thomson because his death and the subsequent rise of the group of seven onto the international art scene, uh, I posit that all of that movement and all of the Canadian art movement that was coming out at that time was, was, uh, fostered in a political act. Lauren Harris and j h McDonald and the guys who started the group of seven believed that a country will be known for its words, its deeds and its art, but most importantly its art. So it was very important to them that Canada represent itself on the international art scene. And when Thomson died, and Harris and the rest of the group of seven started following, essentially in his footsteps, they always showcased their work with Tom Thomson, and they attach themselves to that story. Because if you want to get an art movement going, you have to have a good story. And what gets a good movement going, a martyr, somebody who dies and under

    Craig (00:41:42):

    Mysterious circumstances

    Bruce (00:41:43):

    And if they die mysteriously, if their ghost haunts the lake, if Cetera, et cetera, et cetera, then you have a great story. And then you're, you're gonna go down in history, Thomson would've been largely forgotten had the group of seven not attached themselves to him, if, you know, they just figured out, Oh, he was a drunk who fell out of his canoe and, and drowned, and who cares? Uh, you know, no, no big loss for Canadian art, but all of that mystery and the, and the surrounding stories, I mean, every year there's another book on Thomson, There's another, there's another take on it. And, uh, so yeah. And, and it's, there's a playful playfulness to the, the, the Harris story that I get into. And, and I start to leap off into some of the other ridiculous notions like that it was the fish that killed him, or maybe it was, you know, all these other, uh, great intriguing and I think very, very creative ideas of, of, uh, who killed Tom Thomson.

    Craig (00:42:36):

    Do you think the notoriety that you're getting with Star Trek will enable you to remount that show again, or pursue other creative endeavors? Are we gonna see Assassinating Thomson again at some point?

    Bruce (00:42:49):

    Yes. Assassinating Thompson is going to the National Arts Center in Ottawa, and we're running from July 26th until the 31st on the fourth stage. So an outdoor venue. And then I'm also doing a tour of Manitoba in February of 2023. February. You say, what a strange time to tour Manitoba. Although what sold me on it was two things. One, uh, we get to go to Churchill, which is a place I've always wanted to go. And the second thing was the tour coordinator told me that February, while it's cold, it's a stable cold <laugh>.

    Craig (00:43:21):

    I've been in Winnipeg at those times of year. And yeah, I decided that I didn't wanna permanently move there. But, uh, yeah, minus 25, minus 40 with the wind chill.

    Bruce (00:43:30):

    Oh, it's gonna be good. It's gonna be real good.

    Craig (00:43:32):

    And it's indoors, I hope. <laugh>

    Bruce (00:43:35):

    Yes. All indoor venues

    Craig (00:43:37):

    Otherwise your paint will freeze.

    Bruce (00:43:39):

    That's right.

    Craig (00:43:40):

    <laugh>. Um, I'd mentioned at the top about the connection between Stratford and Star Trek. Mm. There are so many. And you've been on the stage at Stratford, you did Assassinating Thomson. That's right. And then you did the improv,

    Bruce (00:43:56):

    Um, an undiscovered Shakespeare.

    Craig (00:43:57):

    Undiscovered Shakespeare. What do you, what do you think about that connection between Stratford and, and Star Trek and the, the great talent that's been on the stage here?

    Bruce (00:44:08):

    Well, it just makes perfect sense to me that, uh, someone who has a grasp of Shakespeare would go off to Star Trek because some of that techno jargon, the techno babble, I think that's what they call it, is it technically English <laugh>? But it's like, yeah, you have to really, uh, you have to wrap your mouth around that stuff. And I think having a, a grasp of, of Shakespeare is super helpful.

    Craig (00:44:31):

    Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, that's what Patrick Stewart said when we were doing that, that film Captains. He said, it's like acting, uh, a lead character, McBeth or Hamlet, it's a, it's a major, it's like a king in Shakespeare acting in Star Trek. And you have to have that grasp of, uh, uh, of, of the language in order to be able to, uh, present the story properly.

    Bruce (00:44:52):

    Definitely, definitely.

    Craig (00:44:54):

    Let's talk about, uh, the period during, uh, Covid you're very big on improv. Yes. And I wanted, uh, hear about how you passed the time before, before Star Trek came a calling.

    Bruce (00:45:07):

    Uh, well, when everything shut down, I think I went into, into isolation for two weeks and just kind of shook my head and thought, Well, that's it, that's the end of the performing arts. But, um, so there's sort of a core group of us here in Stratford, um, who, who improvised together, uh, Rebecca North, then myself, Kevin Kruchkywich, and Ijeoma Emesowum. And the four of us were kind of the locals who were working on an undiscovered Shakespeare, which sort of the brain child of Rebecca Northbound whose spontaneous theater shows. What they do is, uh, including Blind Date and Legend has it undercover, they all focus on an audience member. We bring an audience member up on stage, we interview them, This is undiscovered Shakespeare. We interview them about their real life love story. And then we take a little break and then we come back and improvise a five act Shakespearean play based on their love story in Iam.

    Bruce (00:46:01):

    There were, I think there were seven of us in that company, plus a musician. And, uh, we'd been working on it for five or six years. We were ready to pull the trigger and do it in the 2020 season. And then everything kind of fell apart. So Ijeoma, Kevin, Rebecca, and I decided, Well, we're not just gonna sit on our thumbs and wait for this thing to pass. We have to do something. We've gotta keep, cuz the practice of improvising is, is something you, you just have to keep up with it. And then improvising in iambic pentameter is something that's like, Wow, this is, it's a whole other ball game. And if you go for a year without doing it, you're really gonna, you know, you're gonna be starting so much further back. But, um, so what we did was, uh, the first thing we did was a thing called Sidewalk scenes.

    Bruce (00:46:45):

    So, uh, we would offer kind of a menu of shows to the locals and they would book Spontaneous theater to come and do a sidewalk scene. And you'd either get an improv show or a music show, or an improv in music show, or there was also a kid show that Ijeoma did. And, uh, we did that for the entire summer, toured all over Stratford, many, many, uh, driveways and parking lots in Stratford. And uh, that kept us very busy. And then we also did a, uh, production of Romeo and Juliet at the Bruce Hotel in the, in the Parkade. So we partnered with the hotel, they provided, uh, food service to people's cars. We could, I think we could accommodate eight cars in the parking garage, and then we would perform Romeo and Juliet in the center, the four of us. And that kept us very busy for the month of July and August. And sidewalk scenes eventually turned into backyard concerts. And then we also, under spontaneous theater, we moved indoors to the Revival house. So we did some, like a, a weekly improv show there, uh, called Spontaneous Theater. And yeah, just continues to this day, Spontaneous theater, uh, still working on shows.

    Craig (00:47:55):

    And where does music fit in? Are you performing regularly, practicing?

    Bruce (00:47:59):

    I'm still practicing. Yeah. And I, I, when we did sidewalk scenes, um, I was the musical act along with my partner on only at Gilbertson, we played as the rail bird, so the two of us would, would do music. Um, now I'm still practicing and I'm doing some solo shows and, uh, composing music pretty much every day

    Craig (00:48:16):

    And not so long ago, uh, you were out in Calgary doing something called Goblin MacBeth.

    Bruce (00:48:21):

    Goblin MacBeth. Yes.

    Craig (00:48:22):

    I didn't get a chance to go Calgary to see it, but I can only imagine what is, what was Goblin MacBeth?

    Bruce (00:48:27):

    Goblin MacBeth was absolutely wild.

    Craig (00:48:30):

    So was it improv?

    Bruce (00:48:31):

    No. Well, so years ago, Rebecca had this idea that, um, so when a production of, say, Hamlet is coming up, and I think initially it was gonna be Goblin, Hamlet and Rebecca said, Well, every time I hear about Hamlet, the first question is always, Who's your hamlet? Who's playing Hamlet? And when, as soon as they come out on stage, uh, everyone is immediately comparing this performer to the one that they've seen before. And Rebecca thought, Wouldn't it be interesting if you didn't know who was playing Hamlet so you could just hear the words? And, and so we do a lot of mask work in spontaneous theater, and we'd found these incredible silicon masks. They're goblins and they're from a company in the, in the US called Composite Effects. And they provide a lot of the masks to, um, like Game of Thrones style stuff.

    Bruce (00:49:22):

    And we thought, wouldn't it be great if we had a goblin come out and do Hamlet or whatever, and a company of, of performers, so they show up in mask, you know, the audience is milling, milling about, and a van pulls up and these goblins jump out, drag the audience into the theater and do a show. So this idea had been kicking around for a while, a goblin and it was always interesting that Rebecca would, would talk to an actor and say, So we got this idea and what would you think about doing a Goblin whatever? And, and she'd get one of two responses. One of the, one the actor would say, So they wouldn't know who I was, <laugh> no way. No way. I'm not doing all that work and not get, And then the other side would be great. Yes, absolutely, I'd love it. So in February, uh, of this year, um, I was in Milwaukee, Rebecca was in Montreal, and we got a phone call from the artistic director of the Shakespeare company in Calgary called Rebecca and said,

    Speaker 4 (00:50:12):

    I'm Hooped, I've got this show dropout they're supposed to open in March. It's a two person version of Macbeth. I'm totally hooped. And Rebecca said, Well, it's a good thing, you know, some improvisers and has some cadre says, What have you got? And Rebecca says, I'll talk to Bruce, I'll get back to you. So she called me in Milwaukee and said, Hasim needs something. Here's a few ideas. We kicked around the two of us going out and just improvising the Shakespeare. So we would put all the play titles in a hat and have an audience member draw, you know, Titus Andronicus and then we would just improvise it. And I thought, that sounds really hard. <laugh>

    Craig (00:50:48):

    Going out on a limb. Gotta remember your encyclopedic knowledge of Shakespeare

    Bruce (00:50:51):

    Yeah. Improvising in iambic pentameter. And I, I felt a bit rusty and totally terrified of that. And then she said, Well what about Goblin Hamlet? And I thought, well, okay, don't really know Hamlet that well, but what about MacBeth? Cuz she and I had done a production in MacBeth before. I was quite familiar with the script, as was she, she had an adaptation of the script already done, um, for I think six actors. So we wrote back to Hasim or, or Rebecca called Hasim and said, Okay, we're gonna do a two person McBeth, uh, but only if we can get these composite effects, Goblin masks. So she calls down to composite effects and they're like, It's a six to eight week turnaround if you want one. There are a thousand dollars each. And um, if you can use three of the same, we can ship them to you right away.

    Craig (00:51:44):

    Without waiting six to eight weeks

    Bruce (00:51:45):

    Wouldn't have to wait six to eight weeks. We can get them within maybe a week or so. Uh, and we had planned at this point that Rebecca and I would play all the characters switching off throughout the show. Predominantly I would play Macers and she would play Lady M, but we would jump around, we would, you know, halfway through a scene, I'd be playing banquet and then she'd take over the Banquo part because I had to come in as Duncan or something like that. Yeah. So we'd kind of decided on this framework. Um, and we were gonna have a musician. So Ellis from Calgary, who's just a remarkable musician, he joined us. Um, but not for a couple of weeks, cuz Rebecca and I were still not in the same city. So did another edit of the script, did a reading over Zoom.

    Bruce (00:52:22):

    We met with designers who were in Calgary over Zoom. And uh, the thing just kind of rolled. We met in Rebecca, got back from Montreal. I got back from Milwaukee. We rehearsed in Stratford for, mm, I wanna say four days, most of which was spent doing trips to Value Village and, uh, Goodwill to find, you know, props and things, and got ourselves as close to off book as we could get. And got to Calgary. We worked Ellis and we did a couple of days at Tech and we did our first run in full mask in front of an audience in Calgary. And, uh, it was absolutely terrifying. I think 10 minutes before we went out on the stage, uh, one of us said, Are we about to completely humiliate ourselves? <laugh>? But it went over like we couldn't, we could not have asked for better. It was, um, Hasim came up with this great phrase that, uh, uh, pressure creates diamonds and it really, it was one of those experiences that just felt so rare and wonderful that, um, yeah, I'm, I'm really, really eager to get back at it. That, that production, you know, it mixes so many elements that I love. It mixes mask work. There's comedy, there's improv within it.

    Craig (00:53:37):

    Um, is there a chance of restaging it for those of us in the east?

    Bruce (00:53:40):

    Absolutely. Yeah. It's, um, yeah, there's a lot of, there's still irons in the fire, but we're, uh, we were invited back to Calgary to do a run of it in October, September, October. Um, we did one high school matinee and it was on fire. The fact that cuz these three goblins sort of show up and they hijack the theater as though they're not supposed to be there. They force a technician to run lights and sound. They take one, one of the, uh, front of house people and hide them backstage, who they later murder because they need a Duncan and they need real blood because they don't understand the difference between pretend and yeah. And all that. But they're, uh, they just have this absolute sort of disregard and confusion around a, around humanity, but also why Shakespeare and, and that kind of unraveling and, um, you know, proper disrespect of the bar. I think the kids just absolutely loved it and, uh, yeah, I can't wait to do it again.

    Craig (00:54:31):

    And also hooks them into Shakespeare because, you know, Shakespeare, we need to attract younger audiences to see live theater. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, we can't just have our kids looking at iPads and things like that all the time. They have to be, have to experience.

    Bruce (00:54:46):

    Yeah. And that live experience was really, uh, yeah, it was really important. And, and it was, it was incredibly moving to, to, uh, to hear the amount of engagement that, that they were willing to go with at one point. Um, in the show, the, the, uh, you know, the English army is a, is approaching the castle and they're disguised as Birnham Woods. So we, we get a couple of the kids to go out in the lobby and rip apart this sculpture of a tree and give the tree branches out to the audience. And Rebecca Goblin says, Okay, so here's what you're gonna do. You're gonna be the army when the lights are on you, you're gonna hold your branches up and when the lights come down, you're not in the scene anymore. And they would do this, they would just immediately like, hold their branches up like they're hiding and kind of wave them towards us.

    Bruce (00:55:29):

    And at one point, uh, Rebecca's kind of in the audience working up the English army, she says, You know, let let all your trumpets sound and all, all the audience members Trumpet, <trumpet noise>, they all make this noise. And then they start pounding with their feet on the, on the risers as though they're approaching the, the, the castle. And it was heart stopping to be on stage and just to hear this kind of rush from the audience, and, and they're yelling charge and they're getting right into it. I'm like, this is not something you're gonna get really anywhere else, like sitting on you, sitting watching, I mean, beautiful adaptations on film, but honestly, that live theatrical experience, it's, uh, yeah, nothing beats it.

    Craig (00:56:10):

    And theater's now making a comeback. We've been shut down for a couple years. Do you think it's coming back in the same way it was before? Or do you think theater has had a, hit a reset button?

    Bruce (00:56:23):

    Oh, wow. Yeah, I think we've all hit a reset button for sure. It's, um, yeah, the shows that I've gone to see, uh, since the pandemic have been some of the most emotional riveting, um, kind of, yeah, I don't know

    Craig (00:56:44):

    Is it because we've missed it for so long that it's having more of an impact or because we now have a new attitude like Hamlet, for example, we have the first, uh, playing Hamlet, the first black, uh, uh, actor to play the lead character of Hamlet. Yeah, you saw that?

    Bruce (00:57:02):

    I did see that. Yeah. And it's, um, you know, that experience going to see that show was just, uh, it was a rush. It was an absolute rush just to be in a, a crowd like that and to be watching the show and the energy of the show, and you could just feel the passion and the drive and the hunger in that room. And that's, you know, that's been a constant since I've been going back and seeing shows was, you know, even though we're masked, even though we're, we might be socially distanced or whatever, uh, we, we need to be experiencing this stuff together in groups, you know, and in a social way, um, that, that disconnect, that isolation, um, yeah, it was, that was just really, really hard to live through. And thankfully as we, as we start to come out the other side and, and I think we're slowly getting there, um, the hunger for community is, is even stronger.

    Craig (00:57:54):

    So, uh, let's get back to Star Trek. Uh, for a moment. People think when they see you on television, uh, every week or whatever, they've binge to watch that you're always doing that show, but actually a schedule isn't as really as challenging as people might think. What is your schedule, What has been your schedule at Star Trek and where does it go from here?

    Bruce (00:58:13):

    Uh, the schedule was, um, yeah, it was pretty erratic. I, I think I'm in about five episodes of the first season, so I wasn't there every day. And I think the, the, so the, the day would basically start three and a half hours before the call time. So the call time was at nine, it's three and a half hours before that, pardon my math. And, uh, I'd be in prosthetics and, and then, uh, get to set and sometimes it was a whole 14 hour day and then another hour at the end of the day to get out of the prosthetics and then get home. Um,

    Craig (00:58:44):

    And then season two

    Bruce (00:58:46):

    That I can't even talk about.

    Craig (00:58:48):

    No, but are, has that been, that hasn't been filmed yet?

    Bruce (00:58:51):

    Season two is currently filming right now,

    Craig (00:58:54):

    And you're, okay.

    Bruce (00:58:54):

    They, um, they announced season two midway through shooting of season one that they'd already picked it up and they'd already started writing it. So it's a go, it's shooting right now, and I think it wraps, uh, end of June. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. So it'll be airing probably this season two probably air around the same time

    Craig (00:59:11):

    And so you now have time to explore other things

    Bruce (00:59:14):

    Yeah. Yeah. I've got lots of time

    Craig (00:59:15):

    Well, it's interesting that it's called Strange New Worlds because we're kind of in a Strange world and this whole experience for you has been a strange new world.

    Bruce (00:59:20):

    Totally, totally weird, weird new possibilities. Yeah. It's been, um, yeah, I keep, I keep shaking my head and just thinking this, this feels like I've been in a dream for the last, uh, two years.

    Craig

    Where do you think you'll take it?

    Bruce

    I'm really looking forward to, uh, more of that fan interaction. So I'm, I'm looking at doing the convention circuit for sure. Um, you know, there's a Star Trek cruise. I think that would be a lot of fun. Um, yeah, there's uh, there's a, there's a convention in my old hometown of Calgary, Maybe I'll be out there.

    Craig

    Well, it's great to chat with you. Congratulations on your tremendous success in joining the Star Trek universe.

    Bruce

    Thank you, sir.

    Craig

    Bruce Horak. Thanks very much.

    Bruce

    Pleasure.

    (01:00:09):

    You've been listening to the Stratford Slice with Craig Thompson. For more episodes, check out our website, the stratford slice.com, and be sure to subscribe. The Stratford slice is produced by Ballinran Entertainment, Southwestern Ontario's number one digital media studio. If you have a great story to tell and want to be on the podcast, please reach out to us through our website, thestratfordslice.com.

  • (00:00):

    The following is a podcast from Ballinran Entertainment.

    Craig Thompson (00:06):

    Hello, it's Craig Thompson, and this is the Stratford Slice.

    Craig (00:19):

    Stratford Is known for the Stratford Festival, but it's also known for its great restaurants and culinary scene. Today we meet the woman who helped ignite the food revolution, like to welcome Eleanor Kane to the Stratford slice. Eleanor, you came to Stratford in 1979 and opened a restaurant or a tea room, I guess it was at the time, called The Old Prune. And that one, uh, pivotal moment started off a whole chain reaction of things. And today we see Stratford as one of the top culinary destinations in, in Canada. So it's great to have you on the show.

    Eleanor Kane(01:03):

    Thank you, Craig. It's wonderful to be with you.

    Craig (01:06):

    Why on earth did you decide, uh, you had no culinary experience whatsoever. Why did you decide, Oh, I'm gonna come to Stratford in 1979 and open a tea room? What was behind that idea?

    Eleanor (01:17):

    Well, there were a couple of things. Craig, um, I and friends from Montreal used to, uh, take the via train, uh, to Toronto and then rent a car and drive to Stratford for the Stratford Festival performances. That was the engine that, that, that really where it, where it all began. And, um, the, um, the, the, it was also an era in Quebec, famously known as the flq when, um, uh, businesses were leaving the city, major businesses leaving the city, and even smaller businesses. Uh, so the, the, the, the city of Montreal was in turmoil, as was the province. And, um, the, uh, the, the friend that I opened up the restaurant with, Marion Isherwood, her company, uh, she was the sort of, um, the chief really of the, of the office of, um, the, of American Management Association. And that company had made the decision to move to Toronto and wanted Marion to open the office there. And, uh, she said, I have no interest in living in Toronto. Um, but, um, so anyway, this kind of idea culminated in, in the two of us saying, Well, why don't we give it a go in Stratford? And, um, we thought maybe we'd, you know, do something in Stratford for a year or two, depending on how it went, and two or three years. Um, and, uh, you know, the, the idea just took off, which, you know, became the history

    Craig (03:07):

    <laugh>. So you were two women in your late twenties, early thirties when you decided to start this dream?

    Eleanor (03:12):

    Yes. In our, in our thirties. And, uh, um, you know, it was, there was no reason not to try something. Um, I think probably most Montreal were, you know, out there looking at, what else can I do? Because of the, this turmoil, particularly in the English, uh, sector,

    Craig (03:31):

    You wanted to escape and it seemed like a good idea at the time. Why not try it and, and see what comes of it, Right?

    Eleanor (03:37):

    Yes. I mean, part of my escape was the work that I was doing. Uh, as a psychologist, I worked with a, um, um, a facility that, uh, dealt with children with, um, disabilities. And, uh, I was the psychologist on the team, uh, looking to, uh, work with the parents of these children to help them, uh, you know, guide their, guide their children in getting over, or at least dealing with these disabilities. And it was very interesting work. I, I was very happy with it, with the work, but I just reached a point where I thought, You know what? I need a break. Cuz I'd gone from a similar facility, uh, previous to that, doing the same kind of work. And I, I hadn't really had, you know, a holiday, a decent, long holiday. So I thought, um, I need to, I need to take a break from it. So that was that sort of tied in also with this idea of moving to, uh, Stratford.

    Craig (04:38):

    So it was tax on you. You're asking the question, Do I want to do this kind of thing for the rest of my life? I want to do something that's, that I enjoy, or perhaps is a less, less a burden. Like you absorb that when you're doing psychology, you absorb some of the, the trauma and the challenges of some of the people you're dealing with.

    Eleanor (04:56):

    That's, that's very, uh, uh, very true. Um, I, I loved the work, I loved working with, with these children, but it drains you. It's, uh, it's very demanding. Um, and I, I wasn't necessarily wanting to step away from it. I just knew I needed a break. I needed to kind of refresh myself, let's say. But taking at least six months, uh, living somewhere else, you know.

    Craig (05:25):

    And so you mentioned the train and friends coming to Stratford mm-hmm. <affirmative>. But did you and Marion look at the map and say, Okay, we're gonna put ourselves here. Like was it the theater? Was it friends who were here? How did you decide on, Oh, let's try Stratford for a while?

    Eleanor (05:37):

    Well, it was partly friends. Um, um, we met Eric Duncan in, uh, Montreal. And, um, you know, he was a big name with the Stratford Festival in those years. And, uh, you know, he would tell these very amusing stories and, uh, um, uh, uh, you know, so we, we had, uh, we had some connection, and of course, Marion coming from, from England, I mean, she was immersed in Shakespeare and, and, uh, and in theater. And so it, that was part of the draw.

    Craig (06:14):

    When I grew up in Stratford, I could probably count the restaurants, uh, on one hand, like people didn't go in the postwar era, people really only started going out for dinner. I remember that my father telling me he can't remember any time in his childhood, apart from one or twice, once or twice, going out to a restaurant in the 1940s or or thirties, uh, in Stratford, uh, we had, uh, a steakhouse downtown. We had, of course McDonald's in the fast food outlets, pizzerias, and the, in the taverns, there was a food service on some of the other, um, uh, parts of the building, like the Queens hotel. But there really wasn't a, and when the Stratford festival started, the church ladies had to serve lunch and dinner in the church basement cuz there was nowhere. That's right. Nowhere to eat. So 1979, there'd already started to be a little bit of activity in the food. What, what greeted you, how Barron was the landscape when you arrived in 1979?

    Eleanor (07:20):

    Well even, uh, before 1979, when we would make these trips to Stratford, um, we usually, uh, would eat somewhere else. Um, we might see a play and get back on the train and, you know, even Toronto or, you know, we would, uh, uh, look for, you know, some place that was, But it, it was pretty desperate. It was desperate. Uh, so we knew that there was certainly an opportunity. And, uh, that's what we kind of went with coming from Montreal

    Craig (07:54):

    So Montreal would've had a restaurant scene, so you would've seen, you know, the kind of things that's possible in a larger town. What was happening in society at, uh, in the 1970s that possibly created more of an opportunity for the restaurant industry that people were saying, Well, let's eat out once a week, or let's serve the tourists. What was going on sort of in, in society at the time that made the restaurant industry? The timing was right.

    Eleanor (08:26):

    Well, um, let me just think about that because in, in Montreal, the, our family moved from Edmonton to Montreal. My father had, uh, uh, a position of a very good job in, in Montreal. And, uh, my parents loved to cook. They, they loved to entertain. That's how I grew up. Um, the, um, when we got to Montreal, my father was so excited with all the restaurants he took, the family, I'm one of six siblings, <laugh>, he took the family to all these, you know, restaurants and old Montreal and so on. And he, he was, uh, just so inspired by the cooking. And, uh, so we kind of adopted, uh, you know, the, the cuisine of Montreal, the cuisine of Quebecois as much as we could. Uh, and I think that was at the roots for just wanting a bigger, uh, a broader experience in, in the restaurant scene here in Stratford.

    Craig (09:32):

    And you didn't take on something too ambitious, uh, because of Marion's background. You said, Let's open a tea room. So the two of you actually were working in the kitchen? Is that how The Old Prune started?

    Eleanor (09:43):

    Um, well, we were rotated. Um, one week I would be in the kitchen and Marion would be front of house, and then it went vice versa. But certainly the idea of a tea room, uh, was Marion's idea. Um, and it comes very much from that British tradition. So not only would we be making scones and cakes, Marion was a wonderful, you know, um, uh, pastry cook. Uh, but all of the china, the china was Royal Dalton china, which cost a fortune <laugh>. Uh, but we, uh, you know, Marion said, Well, if we're gonna do this, we're gonna do it the way, you know, one would expect. Um, so the Royal Dalton china, uh, covered tables, you know, with, with table cloth, many of which she made. And, uh, so it was, it was kind of drawing on her creativity. And, uh, yeah.

    Craig (10:40):

    So back in 1979, when you opened The Old Prune, this British tea room, what was the initial reaction from visitors to Stratford and perhaps those who were living here?

    Eleanor (10:51):

    Well, it's very amusing because Eric Duncan lived on Albert Street, the same street as, as the restaurant. And he would come down, uh, walking down to, uh, into town, and he would say, Now, girls don't make too much food because, you know, in Stratford, they won't come. Um, so he kept warning us. And so we, we were sort of cautious, but the day that we opened, um, that we, we sent some flyers around and stuff to let people know the day that we opened, there was a lineup down Albert Street. And we went, Oh, my dear, Oh, how? And so we, we, we had to just like ramp up the cooking ever so quickly because, you know, there was a lineup and there kept being a lineup, you know, so it was a small, it was, I forget how many tables there might have been. Um, we could only handle so many people, but there was, there was great demand. So it really said something to us that people, at at least the visitors coming to Stratford for theater, um, would appreciate what we were doing. And that, that certainly held true.

    Craig (12:07):

    And just before the year, before the, what was then known as The Church Restaurant, uh, also with a British connection opened in Stratford. So we had to rely on people from overseas to see the <laugh>, the future of apart from yourself, of course, But yeah, the, the, The Church was your neighbor

    Eleanor (12:25):

    Yes. Uh, along the same, uh, within the same block. And, uh, Joe, uh, Joe Mandel, the owner, uh, came for our opening, um, our opening day. And I'll never forget, he walked, he walked, uh, into the hallway and he said, God bless you too. In other words, you know, thank goodness somebody else is sort of taking this risk, and isn't it wonderful? Um, and, uh, Joe remained ever so supportive of us, you know, for the years that he remained in in the business, he sold the restaurant, as you know.

    Craig (13:06):

    But at the time it was the only fine dining establishment in Stratford?

    Eleanor (13:09):

    Yes, very much so. And, uh, and then, uh, Rundles opened the same year as us. Um, they opened in, I think in July. We opened in in May. And, uh, so within one year, Stratford was now home to three, you know, aspiring restaurants. Yeah.

    Craig (13:32):

    When did you make the shift from a tea room to a restaurant?

    Eleanor (13:37):

    Well, the tea room, it was afternoon tea, then we added lunch, lunch and afternoon tea within that same year. And towards the end of that season, really, uh, we, we thought we'll just add a one pot dinner. And, you know, things, people just kept coming, you know? Um, and, uh, so then that next year we, we, you know, tried to advance the cooking, um, as best we could. We had, we had, uh, some good people working with us.

    Craig (14:15):

    How much do you credit the timing of all these restaurants opening in Stratford to Robin Phillips tenure, and the fact that he brought over some big stars from the UK? Did that, uh, really help in drawing new people to Stratford who might not have been paying attention before?

    Eleanor (14:34):

    Oh, I think most definitely. Um, you know, the, the, Robin's era was so electric, it, it just electrified on so many levels. And, um, the, you know, the actors, uh, you know, the, the likes of, of Maggie Smith, the likes of Peter Ustinov, um, et cetera, um, you know, were, I mean, they were huge names and, and, uh, you know, I think it was, it was part of the magic for sure. A big part. <laugh>.

    Craig (15:08):

    So one of the, um, inspiring offshoots of your Tea Room experiment is something today known as the Stratford Chef School, which is known as one of the top culinary schools in all of, uh, North America. You send, uh, or the school sends graduates all over the world, all over North America, but it started in the off season in your restaurant. Tell us about that. Why did you start a chef school?

    Eleanor (15:38):

    Well, it started with, with, with the three restaurants, actually, uh, The Old Prune, Rundles and the church restaurant, how it, I think for me, the, one of the, uh, the key moments was the three of us got a phone call, or maybe, yeah, it was probably a phone call from the man who was the head of Canada Manpower as it was then known. Uh, his name was, uh, John Evans. And the question he put to the three of us is, Why are you bringing workers from overseas, from England, from France to Stratford

    Craig (16:17):

    To work in your kitchens

    Eleanor (16:17):

    To work in the kitchens? What is wrong with the, you know, the, the training, the cooking training in our country? Anyways, so he, uh, brought us together and we talked, we explained to him, you know, what is required, you know, to reach the standards that the three of us were, were aiming for, We needed, we needed trained people. The season was brief. It's a matter of, you know, five to six months of, uh, of the year. And we needed to, to, you know, have as, as qualified people as possible. His response was, If you, um, write the program that you think is appropriate for training, I will find the money. And he did just that. We did our part. And John came, he lobbied with the, uh, with the, with the government, and he found the channels to support the, the work that we were going to do.

    Craig (17:22):

    So the expat, uh, chefs would be the teachers and the Canadian students would be the students in those initial years, correct?

    Eleanor (17:30):

    That's right. That's right. Yeah. So it was a, it was a good model for that reason, um, because the people that the trained people working in our kitchens then had virtually year round occupation.

    Craig (17:43):

    So what, when you spoke to, uh, John Evans, what did you say was wrong or missing? Did we even have culinary programs in Canada at the time?

    Eleanor (17:54):

    Um, we didn't, we didn't really have any formal training. There were a few, uh, offshoots at the time. I don't remember the names of any of them, But, um, it was not considered a trade. Uh, it wasn't, it was sort of a, kind of on the sideline yet way how you can, you can be a cook, but that doesn't take very much. Everybody knows how to, you know, make a soup, hahaha. Um, and, uh, there was no sophistication to the training. There was no, you know, deep understanding of, of cuisine and gastronomy.

    Craig (18:33):

    And so the school went on for how many years, uh, jumping between the different restaurants. How long did you keep that format going?

    Eleanor (18:41):

    Oh, for a number of years. When, um, I think it was in about 20, Well, first of all, um, Joe sold his restaurant, I believe that was in 1984, 85. Um, and, uh, so it was the two restaurants, Rs and The Old Prune. And, uh, that really lasted well into, I think it was 2014 or, Yeah.

    Craig (19:09):

    So the school started how many years after you opened The Old Prune? So what year, Do you remember what year you started the school?

    Eleanor (19:15):

    Oh, yes. Um, it was 1980, 82, 83 was our first, 83 was our first graduate.

    Craig (19:23):

    So about four years. And how small was it back then?

    Eleanor (19:25):

    It was, it was, well,

    Craig (19:27):

    How many students?

    Eleanor (19:28):

    There might have been, uh, was started with about 24, I think, 24, 25. And then it grew, you know, to 50 50 to 60 students. Um, and, uh, so it, it, it, it grew gradually.

    Craig (19:45):

    So today the Stratford Chef School has a major presence on Ontario Street and Stratford's Main Street. Um, how did, uh, the momentum build up to the point where you were able to build or occupy a permanent structure, not the back, uh, kitchen of the restaurants?

    Eleanor (20:06):

    Well, um, I think that the, the sort of background research that we had done and, uh, to, um, to place the school in the, in the right sort of environment. And we also researched deeply the, the kind, the, the curriculum, how we could build the curriculum to aim high, to aim to match the best, the best restaurants in, in, in Europe and in Canada and North America. And we had, uh, we consulted with a culinary school in Vermont, for example. We went, Jim and I spent, uh, you know, three or four days I, with this culinary school, which was highly regarded, and, you know, got information and ideas from them, how they dealt with things. And, uh, so we, we gradually, I think, built the curriculum to a level that that would mean that these young people could step out of, you know, the Stratford chef school and find work certainly across North America. Many of them went to Europe if only for six months or a year, and came back with that, that training, that learning. Um, yeah.

    Craig (21:27):

    If I'm deciding to go to George Brown Culinary school in Toronto versus the Stratford Chef School, how would you say the Stratford Chef School is different than other culinary arts programs?

    Eleanor (21:39):

    Well, I think that, I mean, George Brown is a very good, uh, culinary school, um, and has trained a lot of, a lot of, uh, young cooks and that, that have done well. I think the difference was that of scale, because we were able with a, with a smaller group of people, let's say 50 or 60 students, to, uh, really immerse them into cooking and gastronomy. So the, the idea that, you know, knowing, knowing and understanding the gastronomy of, of the world, really, the, the, you know, the history that's behind what, you know, what became these amazing dishes and so on, That was all, we were all, we were able to add that to the curriculum, which I think was different from most culinary schools.

    Craig (22:36):

    Was George Brown, uh, culinary program in existence when you started the chef school, or was it just starting, do you know?

    Eleanor (22:43):

    No, I think it had been in existence because, uh, our, our chef, Brian Steele, who, who, um, joined us in the, in the late eighties, he was a, he was, um, a graduate of George Brown College. He was in the same class, uh, as Jamie Kennedy. And, uh, so it, there was certainly very good training going on, but the aspirations may not have been the same.

    Craig (23:12):

    What role do you think, uh, the Stratford Chef School and its graduates have had on, I'll call it the culinary revolution? Because these graduates don't necessarily just stay in Stratford, they go all over the place. So what, what contribution do you think, uh, the Chef school made to the world of, uh, this booming world of restaurants that we're in today?

    Eleanor (23:36):

    Well, I, I brought along with me, Craig, uh, what's called the Stratford Culinary Tree. I don't know if you've ever seen it, but, uh, the roots are the three restaurants, and then the offspring are all of the, um, you know, uh, the, the restaurants that I think benefited from, um, uh, from the training and the, and the skills of graduates coming out of the chef school. And so, it, it, it, you know, to me, it, to me, it's a very good, uh, a very good symbol.

    Craig (24:09):

    And even beyond Stratford, because we have many restaurants across Canada and around the world where your graduates, tell us a little bit about your star graduates and where they might have ended up.

    Eleanor (24:20):

    Well, um, many of them, a number of them ended up working in Europe for different, uh, different restaurants, different, uh, different chefs, because those chefs had come to Stratford. And, um, so we had a program of international guest chefs and, uh, you know, some of the, the, the, the very famous ones, people like, like, uh, Jacque Alexandria Guttier, both from France, um, uh, Ricardo Cini from Italy. Ricardo came to, uh, to teach for a week at the chef school, and he had such impact on the students, and he had so much fun. He said, I would be available next year if I could come back. Well, he came back as an instructor, and so he became part of the faculty. And so, you know, there was, I don't know, it's hard to explain it, Craig, but there was a magic there that, that really helped to sustain the school.

    Craig (25:25):

    And so the students, as well as the instructors, helped spread the word. So there's this school in Stratford, and you should check it out. Like it, it became well known across the culinary world, I suppose.

    Eleanor (25:36):

    Yes, it did. I think also in the food movement, there were some very important, um, the food movement in Canada. Um, there was, uh, the, there was some very pivotal, uh, individuals who, who were, were doing wonderful work, and, uh, you know, I was part of a, uh, of a group of, uh, mainly women who, um, um, you know, we're, we're championing, championing, uh, Canadian cuisine and, uh, and also telling the stories. So, so, um, you know, people like, um, Allison Fryer who ran the cookbook store in Toronto, um, Elizabeth Baird, iconic. Now Elizabeth is, uh, uh, a Stratford born, um, uh, woman. And so this idea of, of a chef school, uh, uh, for her was, was just number one. And she was very, very supportive with us. Um, other people, uh, you know, like, uh, Naris Stitch, who was, uh, who was with, uh, the Bank of Montreal, you know, she was on the chef school board for, uh, several years and helped, you know, on the finance. And so it was a wonderful collaboration of, uh, you know, food lovers from across the country.

    (27:07):

    You're listening to the Stratford Slice with Craig Thompson. Check out our website, thestratfordslice.com, and be sure to subscribe. And now back to the show.

    Craig (27:20):

    When you talk, Eleanor, about the food revolution, take us back to the early 1980s and what was considered, you know, out there and what we have today. What was taste like, and was there a lot of education that had to be done on the general eating public, I suppose, on, on trying new things? Just refresh our memory on, on how different maybe food and restaurants were in the 19, early 1980s, if you can remember the menus back then.

    Eleanor (27:48):

    Well, um, I think the, I, I think the food revolution at the time was, was largely influenced by the cuisines of, of Europe. Um, not so much further east. No you, you didn't find Asian cuisine coming into restaurant menus, but, um, the, you know, the, the, those basic dishes, and having come from Montreal, I mean, there was no better, um, cookbook than Madame Benoit <laugh> and, uh, the, um, uh, and, and then also people like Julia Child, you know, who was, you know, she lived in Europe, worked in Europe, and then came back to the US and, and, uh, had a, a wonderful, um, a wonderful career there. So it was a sort of a culmination of those things. But, but then things started to change, I think probably because of immigration, uh, you know, not just in Canada, but, but, uh, people were all over the world were moving from place to place. And so, um, it, it just became more interesting and, and more demanding for, for chefs.

    Craig (29:06):

    We've seen, we've just come through two years of a pandemic where, uh, most people would agree that the restaurant sector was probably the hardest hit, and hospitality in general, but restaurants in particular, um, it's such a challenging low margin business, isn't it? It's it, you have to be passionate about it to be in it. Is it, would you say that?

    Eleanor (29:31):

    Very much so. It's, um, the margins are, are, are very slim and the work is hard. The hours are long. They, you know, the atmosphere can be very, very tense, very electric. Um, but, you know, the offset is the clientele and the reactions that they have. I mean, in Stratford, I would say, you know, those, those three restaurants, the clientele became like friends. They helped, they, you know, um, supported in, in in many ways. And, uh, so we, we were backed up by, by people that, that, you know, were, were just immensely, immensely helpful.

    Craig (30:19):

    Television celebrity chefs like Gordon Ramsey helped perpetuate the, the myth, or perhaps it's not a myth, but the, the, the, the chef is like a general in an army and you have to be very, very direct. Do you think that's changing now that there's more, uh, a softer approach in the kitchens? Do you think that was one issue that people complained about in, in, in the service industry, working in a restaurant that, you know, I'm getting burned out so quickly cuz I just can't stand the pressure. Is that something the chef school helps with graduates to manage, uh, the work environment?

    Eleanor (30:56):

    Um, it's a, it's a good point that you're raising. I think the, the Gordon Ramsey thing was a lot of, you know, a lot of energy, a lot of kind of, you know, uh, bullying that went on. Um, uh, you know, we, I certainly witnessed some of that, but not, not towards me, but, but watching the industry, um, I think the, you know, I think the understanding of the complexity, what is demanded and required from your, your staff, from, from, you know, the chefs in the kitchen is much more fully understood. Um, the place of women in the industry is also changing. There are, there are many more opportunities for women to move up the ladder in, in the kitchen, and, you know, the great great women chefs, uh, you know, around the world. Um, but that took, that took some change.

    Craig (31:59):

    What about at the front of house? The pandemic, uh, resulted a lot of people leaving the industry because of insecurity. There's also been a lot of talk about how tips are managed and, and sharing. What do you think the restaurant industry in general has done a, a massive reflection over the last couple of years and is now emerging and will, will, uh, approach, uh, the business management in a different way? What do you see happening?

    Eleanor (32:26):

    Uh, well, I see that very directly. Um, one of the, uh, one of the people that served on the chef school board for years, uh, Ryan Donovan, who’s co-owner of Richmond Station in Toronto, which is a very successful restaurant. Ryan was pre, uh, pandemic. He and his partner were, were working to modify the tip arrangement within their restaurant, and they actually put that in place before the pandemic. That, that the tip, uh, you know, would, would not go to individual servers that wouldn't pocket that money. The tip went into a pool that became part of, of, uh, of shared things. So some went into the kitchen, some went to management, et cetera. Um, and, uh, now I think tips are more commonly, uh, in, in, in better restaurants. They're, they're included in the bill. So there's automatic tipping that happens, which kind of levels the, uh, the, the field.

    Craig (33:30):

    Does the industry though, need a code of best practices? That's, that's across the, the board? Or is it really up to the individual entrepreneurs to say, This is how I'm gonna treat my employees, this is how I'm gonna run my business?

    Eleanor (33:43):

    Well, to my, to, uh, you know, to my knowledge, there, there is no such, um, system in place. Um, I think it's, it's coming about perhaps slowly because of individual restaurants or perhaps movement within restaurant communities. Um, to my knowledge anyway.

    Craig (34:06):

    What's the biggest problem facing restaurants right now, uh, as we come out of the pandemic? Is it the front of house staffing? Is it, what do you think the issues are if you were running a restaurant today?

    Eleanor (34:20):

    Well, I think it's, it, it's certainly, um, staffing is, is huge and, uh, I, I don't really know what the solutions are. I haven't, I haven't, uh, I haven't, uh, seen anything written about it in, in, in that detail. Uh, it's, um, you know, it's, it is an industry that's so unique. You know, if you, if you have a day job, you know, you have hours and you know, you'll get probably home by five or six o'clock and you have time with your family, et cetera. Well, the restaurant industry has never been like that as you know. And so I, you know, I'm not, I'm not really totally there in, in what could happen. But, um, I, I have hopes in, you know, the likes of, of, of Ryan at, uh, Richmond Station and other chefs that they're, they are becoming the engines of change. Um, I know here in, uh, in Stratford people like, uh, Larry, Larry McKay, McCabe at Paso, that they're working on a system to, you know, uh, even things out for, for their workers.

    Craig (35:34):

    What about the rising cost of food? Uh, how concerned are you about that?

    Eleanor (35:39):

    Well that's a huge, that's a huge issue. So the margins become even slimmer in, in the industry. So it's the cost of food access to, you know, the products that they need. It's all this supply chain that has, has, uh, stalled and, and is very slowly coming around.

    Craig (35:59):

    We talked about the role the chef school has played in influencing the culinary industry, but the other thing that's happened over the last 20 or 30 years is the local food movement. Um, tell me what the unexpected influence of the chef school and the restaurants have had on Stratford as an agricultural hub, because there's some interesting things happening in farming.

    Eleanor (36:24):

    Well, um, certainly the, the slow food movement has, has, uh, impacted in our community amongst, uh, the restaurants and also the providers, the food, uh, the people that grow the food. Um, the likes of, uh, Soiled Reputation, Anthony John and, and Tina Vanden Ville. I mean, they were, they have been leaders in, um, yeah, in insisting on, uh, on, on, you know, local food. And, um, it reminds me of, um, our chef for, for 30 years at the restaurant was Brian Steele. And, uh, Brian, um, you know, he did his studies at, uh, George Brown College, and he told this story that, that he and Jamie would, uh, run out and make sure they, they got some fresh double cream that wasn't, you know, hadn't been sitting for too long. So they kind of brought in some ingredients that they thought, you know, would enhance the, the dishes that they were making. Um, so I think the, you know, I think this area, uh, you know, Starford and, and Perth County should be very proud of the, the efforts they, they have made, the farmers have made to bring their products to, uh, you know, to market products to the restaurants directly.

    Craig (37:52):

    And that has also helped change consumer habits, because consumers, by and large are now going to the larger supermarkets and expecting to know where their food comes from. You will buy, uh, Ontario strawberries over California strawberries, You, they, the supermarkets are going outta their way to identify this is grown in your area.

    Eleanor (38:13):

    Yes,

    Craig (38:14):

    Yes. They recognize that that, and that in, in, in part is, can be traced back to the restaurant and the demands of the chefs.

    Eleanor (38:22):

    That's right. That's right.

    Craig (38:23):

    Incredible.

    Eleanor (38:24):

    Yeah.

    Craig (38:26):

    Where do you think we're going, uh, now in the restaurant industry? Some people think that we're in a little bit of the Wild West in the restaurant. There's a new restaurant popping up in every corner every week. Some of them, I think the studies say the average restaurant doesn't last more than one or one or two years. There's a lot of restaurants opening. Do you think there are too many restaurants right now?

    Eleanor (38:50):

    Well, if we're speaking of Stratford, uh, I don't have a sense that there are too many restaurants or, or restaurants that are, you know, opening for like, just a year. Um, I think the, the turmoil or the upheaval that's, that's, that's, um, been largely driven by Covid is, is, um, it, it hasn't even begun to settle. So I'm, I mean, I think it's wonderful that, you know, people are coming back to the Stratford Festival to, you know, which is a, an engine of, of, uh, uh, driving commerce. Um, but how that, you know, how that really impacts the, the restaurants and what, how they're doing. I'm, I'm not really sure. I don't have an answer to that question, Craig.

    Craig (39:44):

    One of the things, though the chef school teaches is it's not just about what goes on to the kitchen. I've been to some of the dinners that the chef school holds, and it's a lot about customer service and presentation and how the customer, uh, relationship has, Do you think that is something that the industry really needs not to ignore? It's not just the food that goes on the plate, it's the way that it's presented. And how is that front of house experience changing? Because obviously many people who open restaurants sometimes they think, Oh, let's just make the food good, and without thinking of the experience. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, do you see that as a, a concern that you think more restaurants should be really focused on that customer experience?

    Eleanor (40:32):

    Well, having come from that tradition, well, of course I think it's important. And I think that more emphasis should be made. Um, every now and then, I'm sitting at a, at a dinner table, at a restaurant table with either a graduate of the school or someone that I worked with in the school, and something happens or doesn't happen in front of house and you go, Mm, that wouldn't happen in the <laugh>, in, in, in the Stratford Chef school. So the students are the, that training continues, and I hope it never shifts away from the emphasis on front of house. Um, you know, I, I look through notes from years ago and look at photographs of students, uh, you know, in their chef school jacket, which is a classic, um, uh, um, executive chef jacket. Just the whole, the whole build of it. And I look at them and I think, you know, that's so special cuz we really emphasize that, that, you know, we are, you're dealing with the public. You're not just behind the scenes. You have to understand in your restaurant that you, you, you have to know how to welcome people. You have to know how to solve problems at the table. You need to, um, you need to gain their respect, you know, on the, on the person to person front.

    Craig (41:59):

    You need to tie into your psychology experience that you had earlier on, what people come to restaurants for different reasons, but are you able to sort of pin down customer profiles? Why do people go to a particular restaurant? Or what are the motivations for sitting down and having a meal outside of the house?

    Eleanor (42:20):

    Well, I, I think, uh, Craig, intrinsically, uh, the joy of experiencing the quality of, of, of a dish, the, the, the inspiration that that comes from a dish, um, that's never going to change. And I think that is, that's an anchor. That's, that's the, like the, the core of what, uh, can make a restaurant successful. So I think that, um, you know, I don't see that disappearing. Um, I'm not sure I'm answering your question.

    Craig (43:02):

    Where do you think the restaurant industry is going, uh, right now in terms of the types of food on offer? Are we into a period where we're in a stable period, or do you think there'll be a lot more change to come?

    Eleanor (43:18):

    Well, I think change will continue, um, uh, because, you know, the whole demographic of the world is changing. You know, people are moving from place to place there, we can expect, I believe, more, uh, uh, just a, a, a broader cuisine, uh, new dishes coming in from different, uh, uh, uh, different countries. Um, so, uh, and I think that if, if the cooking is, is fantastic, if the cooking is wonderful, you, you've probably got yourself like 70% ahead, uh, in, in success. Because if, if the cooking isn't good, well, people are not going to come back. If you can add onto that, you know, the, um, the, the kind of understanding and respect that the client needs and, uh, and, and the joy that, you know, that comes from that experience.

    Craig (44:22):

    So the chef school, the Stratford chef school is coming up on an anniversary, uh, if not already, 40, 40 years

    Eleanor (44:29):

    45 years, uh, next year. Yeah. So we're almost there, 45 years.

    Craig (44:36):

    When you think about that, what all started with this tea room? Like how do, what, what do you look back on <laugh>?

    Eleanor (44:44):

    Well, um, you know, I can, I don't count the years because it makes me feel very old, and I am very old <laugh>. But I, you know, I'm, I'm very, very proud of the work of the chef school. I'm very supportive of, um, of that work. And, um, you know, I, I hope it doesn't, I hope it doesn't change. I hope it doesn't. Uh, I hope it grows and flourishes.

    Craig (45:16):

    And what role are you playing with the chef School now?

    Eleanor (45:19):

    Uh, I'm on a, uh, an advisory committee, which is, uh, sort of an adjunct to the board. Uh, we, we meet perhaps four times a year and, you know, there might be issues coming up that we would examine and make suggestions or help where we can. The other thing that I am involved with, uh, that, um, I think has been a, a very unique arm of the training is something called the Gastro Writer in Residence. And that program has been running, uh,

    Eleanor (45:55):

    Uh, for a very long time. Uh, I think probably 2012 was the first year. And so we, we bring every year a, a food writer to Stratford, and they spend two weeks with students helping them learn how to tell their story, because that's also part of success in the industry. You have to, you have to tell your story. You have to be able to engage people with the, the why's and the hows. And, um, so these food writers that I've written down, some of the names, like people like Ian Brown, who has, who worked with the global male for decades, um, Adam Gopnik, James Chato, um, uh, we had, uh, most recently this wonderful character, Bob Bloomer. Um, he was recommended to us by Elizabeth Barrett, who's known him for a number of years. And he was like a huge hit with the students. I mean, he's, it's sort of, I call it a bit funky, his cooking, but it's, but there's such joy in it. And, uh, the students just, they just look, they just adore this man. So it's, you know, and he's, he's a great cook, but he's also a food writer. So there's another arm of, uh, you know, of, of the industry.

    Craig (47:21):

    When you sit down for a meal at a restaurant, what kind of food do you enjoy?

    Eleanor (47:28):

    <laugh>? Um, well, I must say I'm, I'm, uh, I'm very fond of, uh, of French cuisine. Um, I, I like, I like food to be fairly simple. Not overly, you know, embellished or dressed or, um, but I like that. I like that freshness of, of food. Um, and, um, and there's lots of different ways of kind of making that happen.

    Craig (48:00):

    So given your network of restaurants and chefs, no matter where you go, you probably will find a, a table that, uh, is ready for you. Is that, uh, what you do and you're able to sort of experience a lot of, uh, different restaurants, or do you stay at home and cook for yourself largely?

    Eleanor (48:20):

    Oh, I love to travel and I love to, you know, there's always a list of restaurants wherever I, wherever, wherever I'm going. Many of them, like certainly in Canada would be ones where there's a graduate. And so I, I, I, I so love going to their restaurants. Um, haven't been able to do it for, you know, about three years now. But, uh, uh, and the same traveling in Europe, you know, there are chefs that, you know, were, were so, so, uh, iconic in our time at the school. So I, I love to visit them.

    Craig (48:52):

    Well, congratulations on all the, the work you've done. And thank you for, as someone who goes to restaurants often, not just in Stratford, but all over the place, uh, perhaps, uh, your influence or the influence of the Stratford Chef School has rubbed off well beyond, uh, Stratford. So thanks Eleanor, for sitting down today and great to have this chat with you.

    Eleanor (49:14):

    It, it's been a pleasure, Craig. Thank you.

    (49:17):

    You've been listening to the Stratford Slice with Craig Thompson. For more episodes, check out our website, thestratfordslice.com, and be sure to subscribe. The Stratford slice is produced by Ballinran Entertainment, Southwestern Ontario's number one digital media studio. If you have a great story to tell and want to be on the podcast, please reach out to us through our website, thestratfordslice.com.

  • (00:00):

    The following is a podcast from Ballinran Entertainment.

    Craig Thompson (00:06):

    Hello, it's Craig Thompson, and this is the Stratford Slice. On today's episode, we meet the author who's turned his experience with foster care into a learning experience for Indigenous children.

    Craig (00:39):

    People in my generation, when we were growing up our only encounter with what we call Indigenous culture, was through the Cowboys and Indians movies that we saw from Hollywood. We could dress up as Indians, uh, for Halloween, buy the feathered headdress, get the plastic tomahawks, and we would play cowboys and Indians as well. And the Indians would, for the most part, um, be the losers in any battles that we had, which is a sad thing to say. And it was really only until I, uh, became an adult that I became aware, well, here we are in Stratford and were surrounded by Indigenous, uh, culture and heritage. But we had no exposure, nothing whatsoever to even learn about the Indigenous, uh, people who whose land this was, uh, before European colonization. So last year on the first, uh, National Truth and Reconciliation Day, I had the pleasure of, uh, attending a ceremony where I heard a speaker by the name of Sean Lyon. Uh, he's an author. He's from St. Mary's. He's an advocate. He's just an all-round, uh, interesting guy. And I wanted to welcome you to the show today, Sean Lyons.

    Sean Lyons (01:54):

    Thank you very much. Uh, the honor is mine.

    Craig (01:57):

    So tell me about when you first discovered your own Indigenous heritage.

    Sean (02:02):

    When I was adopted at the age of four, I was told by the agency that I was Indigenous, but they didn't know anything more than that. And it took many, many years of searching to find out who I was. I was lucky enough to find an old photograph that had come with me, uh, in my adoption, and they had whited out the information on the back. So with a thumbnail and some effort, I was able to scratch that off. I found out my last name. I looked through the phone book, started calling those last names, managed to connect with an aunt. The aunt was able to gimme some information through her. I could meet my grandparents, my father, and so on. And, but then it kind of went cold. Uh, so years later I started to search that name out across Ontario to see if I could find obituaries or grave markings or family members.

    Sean (02:48):

    And I stumbled across an obituary from my grandfather's second wife, reached out to the family and was able to get all the information I needed to find out who I was, where I belonged, where I had come from, all the info, all this stuff that I believe the agencies should have recorded at the time, but didn't. So, but I was able to do it. I had a, a job where I was a recruiter, so finding information, um, that doesn't want to be found, became a skill of mine. So I was able to overcome the roadblocks.

    Craig (03:13):

    So what is your Indigenous heritage? Which tribe? Which area? Which nation and what geographic area did you learn? Of course. And what's your, what was your birth name, your Indigenous birth name?

    Sean (03:24):

    So I was, uh, Sean Shosee. Shosee comes from the, um, Anishinabeg Algonquin of Kitigan Zibi. There are a lot of Shosee’s up there. I've just recently begun to connect with, uh, my fellow Algonquins up on, uh, Kitigan Zibi. But our territory was, uh, sort of Quebec, Ontario, but Kitigan Zibi is now right beside Manawaki, about an hour north of Ottawa.

    Craig (03:46):

    So that's where you were born?

    Sean (03:47):

    Uh, no, actually, my, uh, my grandfather left the reserve. He went to fight in World War ii, and at the time, if you leave to fight in the war, you lose your status. So he had lost his status, wasn't able to return, had his family outside of the reserve in Quebec, and then moved to Cambridge. He wasn't able to get his status again until later when they had overturned that. So I wasn't born on the reserve, but that's where my family does come from.

    Craig (04:10):

    Cambridge, Ontario.

    Sean (04:11):

    Uh, yeah, I was born in Cambridge, but the family originally came from Kitigan Zibi.

    Craig (04:15):

    Right. And at what age were you adopted and what were the circumstances of that?

    Sean (04:21):

    I was four years old. Uh, shortly, four days before my fifth birthday, I was actually placed in my adoptive home. Um, wonderful parents, wonderful family that I was placed into, non-Indigenous. However, the issues, if you will, intergenerational trauma is a very difficult thing to overcome, even with all of the knowledge and the skills you might need to do. So my father had been an abuse victim as my grandfather had been an abuse victim. As a result, it was very difficult for them to really capture what it means to be a parent, what sacrifices are required, what behavior you need to follow. And when trauma haunts you and you've never been able to heal from it, you can then transfer that onto your children and you're unable to be what you need to be. And at the time, agencies were really big on the Euro Canadian version of what a family looks like and how one must behave within that family system. And Indigenous culture does it very differently. And even in the case of my parents, um, they weren't following the traditional Indigenous way, nor were they lined up with the Euro Canadian way. So we were removed as a result

    Craig (05:27):

    We, you say

    Sean (05:27):

    We, there was my brother and my sister as well. We were removed from their care and placed in foster care. And, uh, we were never returned home. And, uh, subsequent adoptive homes were found for us.

    Craig (05:38):

    Did you lose touch with your parents? Did you reconnect, uh, have you found your brothers and sisters? Where are you at with that, uh, in your, your journey?

    Sean (05:47):

    My sister was adopted with me. My brother was adopted into a different family. I was able to, through reading through the phone book, finding family, I was able to reconnect with my brother. I didn't find my birth parents until later in life. I had carried a lot of bitterness and anger towards them, um, feelings that I've since worked through. Knowing how intergenerational trauma works, I had briefly reconnected with both before they had passed away. So I was able to get some questions answered and just kind of find out a little bit about who I was and where I'd come from.

    Craig (06:16):

    And where were they at the time that you finally reconnect with them in Cambridge or somewhere else?

    Sean (06:20):

    My mother was in Windsor and my father had moved out to, uh, BC and had started a new life out there.

    Craig (06:26):

    And you were raised in St. Mary's?

    Sean (06:29):

    I was raised in Waterloo. My, both my adoptive parents, anthropology professors, they both since retired, but uh, we were raised in Waterloo near the universities. They retired and moved out to Toronto and they now, in their retirement, traveled quite a bit. Mexico and England did overseas and whatnot. And uh, um, I don't love to go into Toronto, um, but I do to see my parents and they will come visit me as well.

    Craig (06:54):

    So what did they, uh, give you in terms of, uh, acceptance of your Indigenous, uh, culture? Did they work with you on that as you were growing up? Were you aware what, what happened with that?

    Sean (07:07):

    So my parents were some of the, are some of the most open-minded, loving, caring people you'll ever meet. They were all for pride rights, Black Lives Matter. Before they were really big movements at the time. I had learned about human beings first. All the secondary things that people use against each other can often be benefits. Someone from a different culture has something to teach us as we have something to teach others. And, um, as a result, they didn't either know much about my Indigenous heritage, but they said, Whoever you are, whatever you are, you have our 100% support to discover that. There were no limitations, there was no pressures. It was, you know, if you choose a particular creed or if you identify with a certain group of people, we support that a hundred percent. So I think that was really helpful that they gave me that free space to, to find myself.

    Craig (07:55):

    Are you a child of the 1970s or eighties?

    Sean (07:57):

    Seventies.

    Craig (07:58):

    So even though you were in the seventies, you're part of what was called the sixties scoop. Can you explain?

    Sean (08:03):

    Yeah. So, um, it's a period actually between about 51 to 91 where Indigenous children were systematically removed from their families. Sometimes for simple reasons, as the diet that Indigenous people had wasn't what lined up with Euro Canadian views of acceptable diets or certain practices. Certain, uh, children are living with aunt for a week and then grandma and grandpa for a week and then to an uncle. And it didn't fit in with that nuclear, you need a mom and a dad to take care of you. We were more of a community raises a child than a mom and dad alone raises a child. Those as well as several other reasons were why Indigenous children would be removed, fearing that these Indigenous families did not know how to raise their children and then placed in non-Indigenous homes where they would be raised “properly”. And I put my fingers up in quotations as I say that, believing that the Euro Canadian version of how things are done is the most important.

    Craig (08:54):

    And tell me why, why parents didn't have a choice in that decision. When children were, were scooped, so to speak.

    Sean (09:00):

    They weren't living up to the standard. And if you it, if I were to describe it, it would feel a lot like, here are the hoops you need to jump through in order to maintain your family as it is. If you don't jump through those hoops, we remove your children, we find new homes for them. And there's not a lot that parents could do to fight back against that, especially when there's that culture difference and that intergenerational trauma of governments and agencies systematically pulling apart the Indigenous way of life.

    Craig (09:29):

    So when did you start putting your thoughts down on paper? You're now the author of several books. You have two, I guess you could say lines, you've got the children's book series, but you're also involved in writing science fiction. But let's talk about the children's books. Was that started mainly to help you through your own, um, uh, reconnection with the trauma you went through?

    Sean (09:52):

    Actually it started, um, an elder who I respect greatly. She had come to me and said, I have been waiting for you for 20 years. I said, What does that mean? I have been looking for an Indigenous person who is an author, who has been through the child welfare system to write books for our children still in care. And of course, whether I wanted to do it or not. If an elder asks you to do something in our culture, you do it. So, and when I do something, I do it a thousand percent. I don't, it's not a hobby, it's my passion. So I set out to write Little Bear in Foster Care, which I based on my own experiences and care I wanted to give to the children in the same place I once was some answers and some hope. I wanted to build a bridge across those crocodile infested waters that I had to swim through. So they wouldn't necessarily have to swim through that. If I could help them overcome some of the pitfalls I fell into, they might not have the same level of trauma and they might be able to rise up and do even greater things than I'll ever do.

    Craig (10:50):

    Right. So this is an illustrated children's book. It's, it's rather brilliantly illustrated. And this, uh, it's also bilingual. So tell me about the languages in the book.

    Sean (11:01):

    So the traditional language of the Anishnabe people is, uh, Anishinaabemowin. And I wanted it in dual language. Um, part of my fear is that oftentimes Indigenous children in a non-Indigenous social work, foster care system may have very little to no exposure to Indigenous culture. So this book had it in dual language so that they could get a flavor for what our traditional language was. At the end of the book, there's actually three teachings. It talks about the traditional circle, the talking feather, and it talks about smudging. And these are traditional practices for Indigenous peoples. My hope is that it plants a seed of interest in these children that they want to learn more about their Indigenous culture. Worst case, if they never get any further exposure, at least they have some of the basics in this book.

    Craig (11:45):

    So do you believe there's a disconnect, uh, with young Indigenous children who might have been through foster care with their culture? Or are we seeing kind of, more of an interest in bringing them closer to their birth culture?

    Sean (11:59):

    It's, it's a bit of a mixed bag. So there are several children who might feel disconnected, I'm Indigenous, yet I'm in a world that isn't. And they may often be racialized or feel like being Indigenous is somehow less, become ashamed of it and not want anything to do with it. I've unfortunately met some Indigenous people that don't care at all about being Indigenous. And for me, when I go into circles with, I do a lot of speaking for schools and when I speak to the kids, I show them how proud I am to be Indigenous. That yes, I was that Indigenous person in a non-Indigenous school in a non-Indigenous world. But for me to connect to that identity really gave me a sense of value and purpose. So what I could have used as shame, I turned into a unique quality for myself. So my hope is to say to these kids, unfortunately, you might be in a foster home that loves you to pieces but doesn't know how to support your Indigeneity. They don't have to necessarily, but there's a community around you that is happy to come in and help to show you how good it is to be proud of yourself.

    Craig (12:55):

    So give me an example in the book that might have been drawn from your own personal experience and how you've interpreted that in, in the book.

    Sean (13:02):

    So I think the biggest one is the feelings and the communication. When I was in care, I asked all the big questions, Where's my family? What happened? Why am I here? Am I going home? And nobody would answer my questions. And I wonder if it's because they thought I was too young to understand. If someone had said to me, Your parents are having a really hard time taking care of you right now, we're working with them to see if they can get to that place. If not, we're gonna have to find you a new home. Might have been hard to hear, but it would've given me something. So in this book, it talks about Little Bear, the fears he has. He's wondering where his family's gone. He's wondering what's happened. He has a traditional circle where he can sit with his family and his community and they answer his questions and they walk with him.

    Sean (13:41):

    So he never has to feel disconnected. Something I really wish had existed when I was in care, but since it didn't, I wanted to create it so it would exist now. So the kids could have that and they could know, they could ask for their circle. I wanna circle with my family and my community. I have been a part of several circles for community members, children in care as their sort of stand in community uncle. And I've advocated for them and fought for their rights. And I will continue to do that as part of the community, as a way to give back to these kids that were, that are in the place I was. And I had nobody advocating for me.

    Craig (14:13):

    How many years were you in foster care before being adopted into the family that raised you?

    Sean (14:19):

    Um, the agencies were involved with us pretty early on, but I was actually in care for about two years. I had moved around to several foster homes. The last foster home I was in was very, was a very abusive foster home. And the scariest part of that wasn't even the abuse itself. It was when I would report the abuse, nobody would hear me, nobody would believe me. And then the abuse would get worse as a result of reporting it. So you tell a worker, this is what's happening in the home. The worker tells the foster parents, they become meaner. So you realize very quickly you have no voice, nobody cares, nobody hears you. So I wanted to be sure that these children knew they had a voice and that they had advocates.

    Craig (14:54):

    So at what age were you when you went into the family that raised you?

    Sean (14:57):

    I was, uh, almost five. I was on Christmas Eve and my birthday is December 29th, so it was December 24th, the evening I was placed in their home.

    Craig (15:05):

    So your memories of that time and before that, they won't be totally clear, but they're enough to give you that experience that you can relay some of your thoughts as an adult, I would imagine.

    Sean (15:19):

    Absolutely. I do have some very vivid memories of the past and I've learned that trauma has a way of, of really capturing the moment with extra clarity. And in my case, it, it's been for a, um, a protective factor in the future. So early on I learned, uh, people can't be trusted, people are dangerous, the world is dangerous. It's been something I've had to slowly undo into adulthood, but it makes me really aware of my surroundings, who's safe, who isn't. Is this environment safe, is it not? And it's from that time and it's a very difficult thing to shake when during your formative years, you're learning nobody's safe. My home isn't a secure place. My environment could change at any moment and it could be a very dangerous thing. And during a time when most kids are sleeping in their beds, playing with their friends, watching tv, hanging out with their families, I'm stuck in a place that caused me more anxiety and depression than I even had in my teen years. Something that no three, four year old should ever have to deal with.

    (16:17):

    You're listening to the Stratford Slice with Craig Thompson. Check out our website, thestratfordslice.com and be sure to subscribe. And now back to the show.

    Craig (16:30):

    Now you mentioned it was an elder who said, We're looking for someone to, to share these stories, but not anyone, regardless of their culture, can sit down and write a book. You obviously had some good education, your parents were both anthropologists, so there was a lot of influence there. What did you do after high school in terms of education and career?

    Sean (16:48):

    I'll be honest, I didn't like high school very much. Um, it was the social aspect I was interested in. I just found school very boring and irrelevant. Not that it is, it's just I felt that way in my own life. So after high school, I had something to prove I wanted to climb the corporate ladders. So I got really good jobs. I worked three times as hard as the next guy moved up to sales managers, district managers. Um, I've been contracted by companies to help them grow. I've done a lot of high level.

    Craig (17:14):

    In what field? Like what industries?

    Sean (17:16):

    Sales. Everything from uh, ADT security to e-waste recycling to water treatment. Uh, right, a whole gamut. I wanted a thick resume of experience so I could walk into a company and say, I know what I have to offer. I wanna know why this would be a good fit. And for me, it was important that the products and services be honorable. I don't wanna lie or cheat or steal. I will stand behind a product I believe in and then I will position it that way. So it had to have integrity and I had had some great jobs due to some friends that had helped me along the way. Really took a, a liking to me. I got to a point where I thought, I've achieved this. I've shown the world that I can still be somebody. The vice principal of my elementary school told me I was a loser and I would never amount to anything. So I had something to prove to myself that if he was still in that position, I'd love to walk into his office and say, Hey, you know what? I don't want, I'm, I'm not here to be angry with you, but I just wanna say thank you for those motivational words cuz they really helped me wanna show the world that I can be and will be something amazing despite what happened.

    Craig (18:18):

    And when you're in sales, you have to be a good communicator. So you're writing, uh, and communication skills, how did that help you when you sat down to write not only just these books, but your science fiction books?

    Sean (18:29):

    So my parents are both anthropologists. My mother had, um, an English degree prior to being an anthropologist. So as you can imagine, from the age of five on every grammatical mistake I would make, she'd be on me immediately. I was actually very shy as a child, even into my early teen years. If I had to do a presentation in front of the class, I would rather fail the class than do that. I was very shy. Um, but then there, there came a point where I actually got a job. I had oversold myself for this sales management job and I said, Yes, I can do this. I can, I can rally troops, I can get them out selling, I can. And I got put on the spot. We went to a, a convention in Toronto and there was about 600 sales people in a room.

    Sean (19:07):

    My boss said to me, Do what you do, go in there and pump them up. Well immediately my mouth goes dry, my hand starts shaking because I hadn't really had this experience. So I got up in front of them and about half an hour of pumping them up, they went out, their sales were through the roof. He was impressed. And then I realized, I can do this. I didn't think I could, but I can. So as a result, I decided that I have a lot I wanna work through. I have a lot, I wanna say, how do I do it? So I took my experiences and I put them into a fantasy series. It started at the age of three. When I was in care, I realized nobody's safe. This place isn't safe. Every morning I wake up, I'm immediately hit with the anxiety and depression of my situation.

    Sean (19:46):

    I retreated into my mind and I started to create, I first created a warrior who would protect me from everything that was happening. Then I created a tower that I would hide inside and the warrior would guard the door and not let anybody in. Then I placed the tower on a planet that was protected by airplanes and tanks and mazes. And then I duplicated the planet trillions of times and hid in the fog of space so nobody could ever hurt me again. As my life improved, I got adopted, went to school, and did all the things that I did. That world continued to build itself and it continued to be a safe place for me to go and hide when life wasn't so great. Then I had enough material. I thought, I'm gonna write a book. I'm actually gonna take this and I'm gonna put it in a book.

    Sean (20:21):

    It's gonna be a place where I can get revenge, where you can't in real life, where I can get closure, where I couldn't in real life and really work through this stuff. And so I began to write the Drux series and I poured my soul into it, edited it several times, had a few professional editors go through. It became very popular. And as a result, I created the Drux series around the first book. And it is sort of a little something for everybody, if you will. It's got action, adventure, romance, tragedy, triumph, um, everything. And it was, if I have done nothing else in my life, creating this series has given me a real sense of purpose.

    Craig (21:03):

    So in addition to writing that stuff, are you pursuing a sales career still? Are you relying mostly on your motivational speaking? How do you spend your, uh, your days?

    Sean (21:12):

    I kind of, uh, I keep the door open depending on what opportunities come through. Uh, I love writing. I love the speaking. And so, uh, I guess my main income source is the writing and the, and the, the speaking. But again, I'm always open. If there were some great opportunity to take what I'm doing to the next level or to really impact a group or to do something really positive, I would take a serious look at it. For sure.

    Craig (21:35):

    And how did you end up in St. Mary's? I mean, I mentioned earlier in the program that I didn't even know you were around until Loreena McKennitt, uh, had you at the first, uh, National Truth and Reconciliation Day and you were speaking at that event and I said, Who is this? Oh, he lived in St. Mary's. How, how did you end up in St. Mary's who've been there for a while? What's the, what's the connection? Uh, how'd you get there?

    Sean (21:58):

    I have been dying to get a country property since I bought my first property downtown Kitchener, where I had no yard, tons of noise, tons of neighbors. And it took a long time to get to that point. I got lucky that my wife got a transfer to a new job in Stratford and I'd never looked out in this area for a home before. And I stumbled across this property in St. Mary's. That was exactly what I was looking for under my price bracket. And I jumped on it right away. So I said to my wife, I'm like, Well, just put an offer in on a house so you, you know, this job better really pan out for us. And I couldn't be happier. It's everything I've wanted. So I, and then of course I, I started to plant roots in the community. Stratfords obviously right nearby connecting with the Indigenous community, with allies alike. And I've met some wonderful people and some big doors have opened up for me as a result of coming out this way. So I'm very grateful for them.

    Craig (22:47):

    And do you have kids?

    Sean (22:48):

    I do. I have five children.

    Craig (22:51):

    So I want to ask you about that. First of all, how old are they?

    Sean (22:53):

    So my oldest is 26. I had her when I was quite young. And then my next four are, uh, 16, he is almost 17, 14, 11 and nine.

    Craig (23:03):

    So your own experience of not knowing really your birth family and growing up in foster care and adoptive care, how has that changed the way you were a parent?

    Sean (23:16):

    That's an amazing question. That's one of the things I put into my speaks. Um, having, it's actually been my wife who really helped open some of these doors as a social worker. She understood early childhood trauma. She understood intergenerational trauma and how that worked. I had no idea of those things. And when one does not have an idea of the patterns, they might be doomed to repeat those patterns. As a result and a lot of self-reflection, I realized a lot like what happened to me wasn't my fault. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, I blamed myself. I obviously was a bad kid. And that's how I ended up, up in care. I was bullied as a child in school. It was obviously my fault. And then I realized that wasn't my fault. The trauma I endured wasn't my fault. My response to that trauma wasn't my fault.

    Sean (23:55):

    So I had an opportunity to do a lot of self-reflecting, a lot of healing. And when I had children, I decided I am not gonna allow those intergenerational chains to land on my children. I'm going to be the kind of father that anyone would want. So I'm very involved in their lives, uh, very affectionate, spend time with them, try and learn what's cool for them. I play video games with them, but I'm terrible compared to them. Um, but they have a happy home, a loving, stable home. There's been no agency involvements, no police involvements, no nothing that would disrupt their lives. They are happy, they are content. They love us as parents very much. And I say they're probably the first in a long generation to love their father. And that means a lot to me. If I have broken the intergenerational change in my own family, then my life has served another amazing purpose.

    Craig (24:42):

    What have you imparted upon them about their Indigenous heritage? I assume your wife's not Indigenous.

    Sean (24:47):

    She's not. No, but my children are, they have status.

    Craig (24:49):

    Um, and what, what, how have they accepted or embraced that? Some people, as you said earlier, don't care. Other people care. How do your children, maybe they're all different, but how do they in general, uh, uh, accept and embrace their Indigenous heritage?

    Sean (25:04):

    My older two love it and, um, are taking language classes, really. They've gotten involved in some of the local Indigenous communities around them. Obviously they come to me for information. I'm actually a grandfather now. My oldest has a little girl. Um, they named her Zoe. I named her Sokanon, which means rain, cuz she is the rain that washes away the old and brings in new life as a way to kind of clean up some of the past pains. My younger three are, they're, they're more into video games and hanging out with their friends than anything at this point

    Craig (25:33):

    They're teenagers, are they?

    Sean (25:35):

    The younger 3, 9, 11, and 14. Okay. Yeah. Uh, not quite teens. Yeah. Although my nine year old daughter would like to think she is. But they have always been told about the history and what happened, um, who we are, where we come from, and why we should be proud of that. So they're not approaching it with any kind of shame. Yes, we live in a community that doesn't have a huge Indigenous, um, presence, but I've told them there are schools you could attend. Uh, there's benefits to the communities and what they have to offer. So be proud of who you are, no matter what that is, no matter what that looks like. And the, although the younger ones are still kind of like, ah, I just wanna hang out with my friends, I'm getting a sense that they really feel like this will be something in their journey one day that matters to them. And that means a lot to me.

    Craig (26:17):

    There's been a lot of public, uh, trauma, uh, in the media over the last few years, uh, stemming from the residential schools. We've had the papal, uh, apology, the pope coming all uh, truth and reconciliation commission, all this kind of stuff. Um, it's a heavy weight, uh, to bear. Where are we going with that?

    Sean (26:39):

    Well, we are still in the truth, part of truth and reconciliation cuz how does one reconcile if they don't know the truth? And what I see happening is with the truth. I am usually a cynical person, but I believe that if all Canadians got a true education on what happened with Indigenous people, the majority would say, I had no idea. How do we make this right? So with the truth coming out, you now get the fog removed. So you get two camps, those that are, we had no idea, or we had some idea this wasn't okay, how do we fix it? And then the group that's sort of like, Wow, that was a long time ago. We don't care. And it, it sort of divides down the middle. But what it does is at least lets Indigenous communities know who the allies are and it lets everybody know what happened and why.

    Sean (27:20):

    So to say, I've heard so many times what happened with Indigenous people was a long time ago, they should get over it already. Um, I've had trauma in my life and I managed to overcome it. Why can't you, you know, some of these brush off comments and I say, Okay, well, well any, anything that, any question that's asked is not an irrelevant question if you're genuinely looking for an answer. So what I would say to that is, intergenerational trauma is a little bit different than just a, a traumatic event. Yes, trauma is not unique to Indigenous culture. However, if you are part of a privileged society, chances are you have access to supports that don't necessarily exist in the Indigenous communities. So you can get the help you need. You can get the supports, the medications, the counseling you need that we may not necessarily be able to have. And if you actually look at what happened, then it gives you a better perspective as to why we are where we are now. Are all Indigenous people struggling? No, of course not. There's plenty of us that are doing amazing things, but any community is gonna have a certain group of people that we should love on and care for rather than judge.

    Craig (28:19):

    We've got a studio dog here that's the barking in the background and uh, a little dog walked by it, but she's been very quiet. Lulu.

    Sean (28:27):

    I love the bow that you've got on the top.

    Craig (28:30):

    She just had her, um, her, um, spa treatment last week. So she's got her summer, summer, summer haircut. So, um, yeah. And also we have a lot to learn from Indigenous culture and I'm wondering, you know, we're talking about the environment and respect for the land and all that kind of stuff. Do you see hope, uh, coming out of this increased awareness and knowledge of, of, of Indigenous culture? Because to put it bluntly, we're screwing up our world.

    Sean (29:00):

    You know, I, I think about that a lot actually. Um, capitalism is this sort of idea that we could all be rich and we will make as much profit as we can off of whatever we can at whatever cost. I know that might sound a little extreme, but as a basis of kind of how we got here, the Indigenous way, if I were to sort of paint a simple picture, um, if I was a hunter, I would hunt for food, for enough food for the tribe. That's my job. Everybody eats. If I was a capitalist Indian mm-hmm <affirmative>, I would hunt for the meat. The meat is mine. I would sit on it until everybody's starving. And then I would take that

    Craig (29:36):

    And sell it at a high price,

    Sean (29:37):

    Sell it to them for as much stuff as I could possibly get. Yeah. But then, then all I've created is a pile of stuff I can't take with me, when I go, and a bunch of angry people, the sustainability is gone. Being able to say, we need to protect what we have at the cost of profits. Maybe at the root of some of the problems, you know, the the air is bad, the water is bad. Why maybe we're overdoing it. Um, you know, the, the idea that an Indigenous person would look at someone cutting down a, a whole forest to sell the wood for profit didn't make sense to us. Why would you take more trees than you need? Why would you take more food than you need? Why would you hunt more animals than you need? The idea of profit didn't really make a lot of sense. What is there to profit? If I bring meat home for the tribe and I need shoes, somebody makes shoes. If I need more arrows, somebody's making arrows. It's a community that works together within its means. I think the idea that I need more of or better than might have seeded some of these roots of how we've gotten to where we are now.

    Craig (30:33):

    What I see as a, uh, as a problem right now with the current, you know, acknowledgement that of the sins of the past is that people are, for the most part don't have a direct connection to Indigenous culture. Our connection right now is through the media, which is filled with all of this, uh, trauma and the, the stories that are coming out. And then occasionally you are at event or something and then there's the, uh, the land acknowledgement. Uh, those are all well and good, but I don't think, like you and I have known each other for about a year now. And, uh, you really don't, You can't understand Indigenous culture from the media or from land acknowledgements. You need to actually meet people and understand that, you know, they're a living, breathing, human being. So how do we get to that point where, where, oh, you're Indigenous. Like how do we get those, those relationships so people can, it's not just something distant.

    Sean (31:33):

    I think that's a, that's a, there's a twofold answer there. The first one is there is, I, I've heard from several people a fear of the Indigenous community that, “I'm not going to the reserve because they don't like me there” or, um, uh, to say the wrong thing. They're gonna bonk me over the head and I don't want to take that risk. Uh, truth is, um, the reserves are a community like anybody else. You show up, you can do your shopping, get your gas, have your meals, meet the community and it's fine. Um, that stereotype needs to go, that it's not a safe place to go. And the idea that we do need safe spaces in order to learn. So I could say that I might be, you know, not so good at certain areas of newer knowledge. Like for instance, I don't necessarily have all the pronouns down or, or accurate yet.

    Sean (32:20):

    But my hope is if I made a mistake, somebody would gently correct me rather than bonk me over the head. And I think there's this fear that, well I don't wanna approach the Indigenous subject cuz what if I say the wrong thing or use the wrong term and I get yelled at and I feel awful and I don't want anything to do with it anymore. We do need to create safe space for everybody to learn. That's kind of where it, um, certainly comes from. There is actually a, uh, a series on aptn, First Contact that, uh, introduces people who really kind of have some of those “Indigenous people need to get over it already” attitudes and they introduce them into Indigenous communities. They show them how they live. Uh, some of the history, the Indian Trust funds, what that's been all about. Not everybody is swayed at the end of the show, but the majority said, I had no idea.

    Sean (33:00):

    Hmm. I didn't know what happened. These are great people. The way they live is so wonderful. And I think that kind of exposure is helpful, but there's absolutely nothing wrong with go to a powwow, go to the reserve. If you're a genuine true ally or a co-conspirator as a, a term that I've heard floated around by, you've gone from ally to co-conspirator. So you're basically Indigenous without being Indigenous. Like you're there. Get involved in the communities. How can I help? What can I do? I wanna help set up events. I want to, What do you need from me? Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, I think the the reconciliation problem we have is too many people will say, I am going to help you my way and if you don't like it, I get, I get upset. Rather than saying, how do I help you with what you need? That is how reconciliation works. But it's the truth. First, we have to understand what happened, why and how, uh, what oppressive systems still exist today that work against Indigenous people. How do we get everyone to the, to an equal footing where everyone genuinely has the same opportunities and the same respect level across the board. And that's gonna take some time.

    Craig (34:00):

    Well, as the result of that fortuitous meeting last year, you and I are now working on developing a children's animated children's series based on not just this book, but you have a whole series in your head that you want to expand about. Tell us a bit about that.

    Sean (34:17):

    Sure. So Little Bear in Foster Care is the first in a seven book series published through Goodminds.com. It is seven different aspects of foster care using anthropomorphic animals that children can really relate to. Foster care isn't just a, you go into care, this is what happens and out you go. Sometimes siblings go into care, sometimes you're returned home to family or to different family or you're adopted. Like there's a different approach every time with children. And the seven book series follows different animals through their different journeys in the system and um, tentatively called Foster Friends, the TV series, uh, will focus on little bear in his journey and a lot of the experiences he has infusing in elders, teachings, traditions, medicines, and so on with cameos from the characters from the other books in hopes that the TV series should it be extended into season 2, 3, 4.

    Sean (35:10):

    We have enough materials through seven books to really flesh out, uh, what this journey is all about. And to let in not only Indigenous children but non-Indigenous children who watch it, their caregivers, be them Indigenous or not. Or someone like myself who's been through the system years ago, who sits down in front of this and learns and maybe can get a bit of healing by saying, Yeah, your experience might not have been great, but look what's available now to these kids. And maybe if you can get a bit of healing through that. So I am super excited about this, uh, this project.

    Craig (35:37):

    And cross cultural, you mentioned, I think it's very important as you, as you mentioned that non-Indigenous, uh, children, cuz we talked earlier about how do we reinforce the relationship? Well, if the young generation can understand what, what what, uh, what it's all about, then they'll have a better respect, understanding, when they get older.

    Sean (35:57):

    When I talk to the kids or the teens, uh, when I do my speaks, they're already there. They get it. They support Indigenous lives, black lives, the pride, um, community. They've got it already. I've, I, and I'll often say that I bang my head off the wall a lot of times trying to educate some adults on the most simplest of concepts. The kids are already there. So, but to be able to say to uh, a child, I have this friend Tommy at school, he's Indigenous. What does that mean? He's in foster care. What does that mean? I don't know what that means. I don't know how to be a friend cuz there's a difference there. But if, if the child is watching the show, oh, this is what it means for Tommy to be Indigenous, this is what it means for him to be in care. Now I understand I can be a better friend to Tommy and he might need me as a friend. So the exposure is this isn't just for Indigenous for anyone and everyone, especially those who live here in, in, uh, on Turtle Island as we call it, or North America that are going to be, uh, mixing in and around with Indigenous peoples and communities to, it's an opportunity to get the young ones to know about it first so it isn't strange later.

    Craig (36:56):

    So if people wanna book you for a speaking engagement or you want to go into a school, how do they get in touch with you? How does that happen?

    Sean (37:02):

    Normally, it's through my website. I've got a, um, uh, a tab for speaking and I've got, uh, a contact portfolio on there. I've got a whole list of references. My website's www.spjosephlyons.com. That's s p j o s e p h l y o n s.com.

    Craig (37:22):

    And we'll post that on the, on the website for the podcast as well. Thank you. And remind us, remind the listeners about your Drux series where they can see that and what's, what's in, what's in that series?

    Sean (37:32):

    Okay. The Drux series is a six book fantasy series that follows a sort of generations. So you'll have somebody who has a child. The next book is about that child and so on for six books until it's epic conclusion at the end. I won't have any spoilers. That is, um, you can find that on Amazon right now through my website. Um, I'm also going to be turning that series, I'm right in the process now of creating a graphic novel series based on the novels. So each novel is about 20 chapters. So you'll have 20 graphic novel series books to go along with the novels in case you're not a novel reader, but love graphic novels. So there will be two mediums to be able to enjoy that series.

    Craig (38:10):

    And then this book again is called Little Bear in Foster Care, and it's available through Goodminds.com.

    Sean (38:16):

    Also on my website, there's a tab directly to it as well. The second book in this series, Wolf Pup Misses His Pack is, has been officially released. Um, that's also available through Good Minds or on my website. So if you wanna check out what happens to Wolf Pup following Little Bear, please do.

    Craig (38:31):

    Well, Sean, it's been great to, uh, to have you on the, the program, the Stratford slice, and I look forward to collaborating with you in the future on, on this project. So congratulations on your, on your success and thanks for taking the time to chat with us today. Thanks very much. I appreciate it.

    (38:48):

    You've been listening to the Stratford Slice with Craig Thompson. For more episodes, check out our website, the stratford slice.com and be sure to subscribe. The Stratford slice is produced by Ballinran Entertainment, Southwestern Ontario's number one digital media studio. If you have a great story to tell and want to be on the podcast, please reach out to us through our website, thestratfordslice.com.

  • (00:00):

    The following is a podcast from Ballinran Entertainment.

    Craig Thompson (00:06):

    Hello, it's Craig Thompson, and this is the Stratford slice. To most people, she's known as an internationally successful recording artist, but here in Stratford, she's known as a community activist. My guest today is Loreena McKennitt. Welcome Loreena to the Stratford Slice.

    Loreena McKennit (00:40):

    Thank you very much. Great pleasure to be here.

    Craig (00:42):

    I first encountered you way back when, uh, at the St. Lawrence Market when you were starting out busing and getting your musical career. But your connection to Stratford actually started a few years before that. Uh, you started with yes, yes, like a lot of people, you came to Stratford because of the Stratford Festival.

    Loreena (01:02):

    Yes, it was at an interesting juncture of my, uh, the pursuit of, of my career as it were at the time. I had been living in Winnipeg, and in 1981 I auditioned for the festival theater when I was visiting some friends in Toronto, and almost as a lark went down to the equity office and auditioned and was offered the opportunity to be, uh, you know, one of the chorus people in HMS Pinafore. So that's how my, uh, my introduction. In actual fact, I had passed through, um, by train, uh, with my dog when I was visiting some other friends up in Blythe, but we won't count that one <laugh>. But, uh, yes, that was, that was my, um, my serious introduction to Stratford in 81. And I worked at the theater in different capacities for about four years, but it took me about those three or four years to feel like I was going to make this home.

    Craig (01:55):

    How did you decide when you were doing, you ended up doing some music for, uh, some of the performances, the plays, the theater. How did you decide that you wanted to pursue storytelling through music and specifically music that's rooted in history?

    Loreena (02:08):

    Well, I, it wasn't a conscious thing at the time. Uh, I had been, when I was in Winnipeg, I was part of a wonderful folk club that convened at the woodworking shop and Main Street on Sunday nights and comprised of many people from Scotland and Ireland and so on. And, and I became smitten by the Celtic Music. Uh, when I moved here, I was actually in the process of taking, studying Irish history, history by, um, correspondence. And I continued to immerse myself in the Celtic music, uh, even while I was working at the theater. And in fact, there was someone in the company, it had a little harp, and I, I borrowed it from a, on a few occasions and then acquired my own harp, um, in the early eighties as well. And, uh, so when I was not invited back, uh, to the theater after 1984, I thought, Okay, am I going to play in lounges or I'm gonna teach music, or what am I going to do?

    Loreena (03:07):

    I had always wanted to be a veterinarian, and, uh, I borrowed the $10,000 my parents had saved, Well, with great difficulty for me to go to vet school. And I borrowed that money to make my first recording in 1985, and went into a wonderful studio that was in a barn just outside of a Laura, and made my first recording and recorded it and mixed it in week. So it, I, I, I like to say that I knew what I was doing or that I chose music, but I really feel, when I look back, that music shows me.

    Craig (03:39):

    Now, you grew up around music, but you grew up in an agricultural background. Was there music in your household? Did you learn to play piano or something? How did the harp jump out at you?

    Loreena (03:48):

    Well, there wasn't much music, uh, in our household, except for when my grandmother would come over and play, uh, the piano when she was babysitting and be putting us to, to, to bed. Um, my, my father was a livestock dealer, my mother a nurse, but the community of Morden, uh, is rich, uh, still with a strong German Mennonite community. So there was a lot of music throughout the, throughout the community. And, um, in fact, my private music teacher, Ancke Frizen and, uh, she came from the, the, the Mennonite community.

    Craig (04:23):

    She was a piano teacher?

    Loreena (04:24):

    She was my piano teacher. But when I started piano Lessons at the age of five, she made it obligatory, uh, for each of her students to belong to the children's choir that she had convened. And this wasn't just some rinky-dink children's choir. It was a really, really excellent children's choir. And we would compete against the Mennonite Children's Choir in Winnipeg and, you know, do very well.

    Craig (04:46):

    So seems like a, kind of a bit of a dichotomy. You grew up on a farm in a German culture, and then you went into a career that is more Celtic and, uh, musical it. How did the, how did, how do you sort of deal with those two conflicting pathways?

    Loreena (05:03):

    Well, I think once I got interested in the Celtic Music through the Folk Club in Winnipeg, and I tapped into my own, my own family history comes from Scotland, Ireland, and actually my mother on my mother's side, they were, uh, Russian Mennonites. Um, so it was, um, so music came at me a few different directions, but the Celtic music really, I, I was quite smitten by it. I'm sure I would've been, regardless of my heritage. Uh, I listened to a few really seminal recordings in that time. One was a wonderful recording by a harper from Brittany called Alan Stivell, and it was called the Celtic Harper Renaissance. And I was just completely taken away with it. And so at the first opportunity, I was able to get a harp and start developing a repertoire. Uh, I started zeroing in on that direction of things.

    Craig (05:56):

    It was very niche at the time. And back in the 1980s when radio was in its heyday, everybody was obsessed with the next pop group, uh, <laugh>. But, uh, I guess you could say, because you were a farm girl at heart, you grabbed the bull by the horns <laugh>, and, uh, if nobody's gonna accept my music, I'll do it myself. Was that the sort of the, uh, offspring of your first self-financed album doing, doing it yourself?

    Loreena (06:19):

    Well, uh, for for sure, I was blessed to encounter this book called How to Make and Sell Your Own Record by Diane Rappaport. And she was good friends with a publicist that I came to know in, in Toronto. And so I used it as my Bible to make my first recording and deal with all the manufacturing parts, but some of the legal parts and so on. And I, so I, I, after I, I manufactured 30 copies and I gave about 15 away, I decided, okay, what am I gonna do with remaining 15? And I decided, Well, I'll go into Toronto and I'll busk at the St. Lawrence market. So there, I sat off and on on Saturday mornings and amongst the cucumbers and the cabbages, uh, from quite early in the morning till about midday, and found that not only was it quite lucrative, relatively speaking, but it gave me the confirmation that there was some interest in the music that I was doing, even though it wasn't, you know, the top 10 or top 40.

    Craig (07:15):

    But because you learned to do it yourself, you didn't really need the help of the, the big record labels. Did you, uh, you had some relationship with them. Can you tell us about how that evolved?

    Loreena (07:25):

    Yeah, Um, yes. Well, I, I produced that recording in 1985. It was called Elemental. And I busked, uh, and then I produced a second recording of Field, well, almost like a field, according of Christmas and winter material, um, in Ireland. And that was to drive the cool winter way in 87. And then interestingly, my, that publicist, Richard Flohill was good friends with the A and R person from Polygram, and he was a huge Irish music, a lover, and he was very close with Dire Straits. And he had heard my, you know, couple of these recordings. And he managed to convince Polygram to offer me an artist development deal for, and that, that was for about $10,000 to go into a studio. We went into, um, a studio in Hamilton, Daniel Lanois studio and recorded what ended up being five pieces.

    Loreena (08:18):

    And, um, after that, in the fall of 88, that that tape went back to Montreal to the, the Polygraph offices. And I took the train up to Montreal in January to meet with the key people to see whether they were gonna sign me on or not. And I went into the office of, uh, the, the, the key individual whose name escapes me at the moment. And he said, You know, what you're doing is quite interesting, but to be honest, we don't know what to do with it. And so we're gonna have to pass. And that year, uh, 89, I was planning to release my third recording anyway, so I said, No problem. Uh, I would like to buy that tape back, however. And he looked at me and, and he said, Oh, oh, sure, yeah, okay, you, well then go down the hall and see Maureen in the finance department and, you know, deal work out a day on Good luck to you.

    Loreena (09:09):

    So I made arrangements with Maureen to buy that tape back for $10,000, but I didn't have $10,000, so I arranged to buy it back in installments. And finally the fall of 89 was the year we were also putting, we did a, I dunno, a 30 concert tour across Canada. And I went to the Bank of Montreal to see if I could get a loan, because we were also, this was the first year producing the music on cd. And the bank said, Well, I didn't really have a strong enough reliable income to get a loan <laugh>. So I just remembered that tour of 89 being just really, really tight and sitting on the road, folding things and so on. And in fact, the Christmas of 89 after that tour was the last time I actually went back to the St. Mullins market and bus, because I just wanted to pay off that debt and kinda <laugh>,

    Craig (09:58):

    Well, a mistake for them, but wise investment for you, because one of the unique things is you control and manage all of your recordings and rights, which in an industry that now is so challenging, it's something that you came along at the right time and your, the timing was ideal. Like today, it's impossible to, to do what you did back then.

    Loreena (10:18):

    Yes. I mean, it would be impossible now for me to start a career like I did back then. But just to finish that little, uh, that part of the history, uh, the, there, the stores, I was starting to, to, to distribute my recordings to Sam, the record man in various stores. And, uh, so finally, uh, the record companies came to learn about these sales, and they, they all came knocking at my door

    Craig (10:43):

    For distribution deals

    Loreena (10:44):

    For, well, actually it was a licensing deal, um, because I had developed the capacity to finance my own recordings. And, uh, so Warners were the- Warner Music Canada was really the only company that was prepared to recognize the fact that I had developed the capacity to finance my own recordings, finance and mount my own tours. I didn't actually need to borrow money from the Bank of Warner, Polygram, mca, whoever is at the time. So it allowed for a very, very different deal. And famously was known as the McKennit deal.

    Craig (11:16):

    And it kind of broke the mold for the record,

    Loreena (11:18):

    Very much broke the mold and, and, and really was the, you know, one of the early independents in this country that was, you know, taking charge. And with that comes owning your masters and you're publishing and all that.

    Craig (11:31):

    So I want to get to the roots of your advocacy, because when you're an actor or a performer, you're not necessarily doing it cuz you want to be famous or look at me. It's more your art. And most people who prefer to pursue those craft are kind of shy and quiet and reserved. But this whole process of controlling your own rights and getting out there must have given you a lot of self-confidence to be able to speak your mind and explain what you want and for yourself.

    Loreena (12:00):

    Yes. I mean, I wouldn't say in those I was coming from an even an advocacy or activist. Uh, I, the closer and the more I got to look at the music industry, I realized it wasn't an industry that I felt that home much at home with, particularly with respect to business practices. And I remember once Warner Brothers records came into the picture in 1992, and I'd go down to Los Angeles and they, initially, they were very bemused by this artist, wandering around without a manager, it almost like parents either or children wandering around without their parents. And each time I'd go down to LA they'd be saying, Hey, we've got a meeting set up for another prospective manager. And, and I'd say, Okay, you know, a bit like blind dating until finally, I, um, I met this one manager, and I can't remember, he, he, he managed, you know, some top tier people.

    Loreena (12:51):

    And I was explaining to him my career and what I was able to do for myself in Canada and in Europe and, and, but I said, in the United States, I'm really needing assistance in touring and marketing. And he stopped, he sat back in his chair and he looked at, and he says, If you think I'm gonna work for any artist, you've got another think coming <laugh>. And I said, Tim, him, Well, I'm sure your other artists would be interested to hear you say that. And I went back to Warner Brothers, I said, You know, I think I'm unmanageable. Uh, and I just don't think I can go in on any conventional deal. So we have to accept, we have to have to accept, um, just working the best we can with myself, managing my career with my colleagues who were considerable. I still am working with a colleague in the UK who had worked with Warners there. Uh, I just spoke with him this morning. So I had some, a good, strong team, but it wasn't a conventional setup.

    Craig (13:45):

    But in terms of your advocacy work, uh, the first time I encountered that was when you saved the building, uh, that you're now in the fall staff center. Okay. Just to be a mm-hmm. <affirmative> a public school. When did you decide, Well, I, I could, I mean, you've been nominated for Grammy Awards, you've won many Junos, you've got honorary degrees. Were you able to use that, that power and recognize that, Oh, I can influence things in my own community? How did that come about?

    Loreena (14:12):

    You know, I've never, I've never really looked at myself in that light so much. Maybe just a little bit recently, but, you know, <laugh>, I'm a simple country girl. Uh, <laugh>, I just felt that that was, that the building that is stunning, uh, schoolhouse, that sitting in this neighborhood, uh, providing many functions needed more of a consideration into the community. And I found that I simply had the wherewithal to step in and arrest it being purchased and perhaps demolished and, and something else. So, so I, it, it wasn't that I had, I felt like I had power, You know, I can see that, that I clearly having resources took a step in and do something like that. But I think, you know, Craig, it comes from a deeper commitment to community and acknowledging that that, that everybody plays a role, can play a role, and, and I think should play a role in keeping things together and, and respecting. Um, what I would like to feel is a more holistic approach to, to community living,

    Craig (15:22):

    Recognizing both sides of an argument as opposed to saying, This must change. Is that sort of what you're talking about?

    Loreena (15:28):

    Depends, You know, it depends. Uh, being enough of a business person, uh, I realize that I can't do or have everything that I want. There's other pragmatic considerations, and I've tried to train myself to be able to take those into account with that building. I just wanted to, uh, make sure that there was enough time. We facilitated, uh, over an extended period of time, community input as to what they wanted. And I, and frankly, I was hoping and expecting something would come out it out of it where some other entity would buy it from me, <laugh>. But, uh, 22 years later, that didn't happen. I'm still owning the building, but while I've been the custodian of this building, um, I've, uh, and I use that word quite selectively, that I want, I feel it had been in purpose in service to the community, and I've wanted to it to remain in service to the community. So that's why we have the composition of, of activities and tenants we have there.

    Craig (16:29):

    That's right. You've got the Multicultural Association as a tenant there. You've got the early years,

    Loreena (16:34):

    Early on.

    Craig (16:34):

    Yeah. Early on mm-hmm. <affirmative>, you've got a theater company performing in there. Yes. Theona, Manos Theater Company. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> this summer, uh, here for now. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And then you were the first person to step up and provide a venue for the first ever National indigenous People's Day last June, uh, a year ago. Right. The venue for the Healing Circle.

    Loreena (16:56):

    Yes. Yes. Um, I mean, that might be giving me a bit more credit than I deserve. I think we were responding to a situation last year where this huge kind of awakening after the cam loops, uh, the, uh, event, and that I had been approached by a local indigenous person to, uh, to see if I would be open to establishing a medicine wheel garden on the property, and welcome. And I said, Absolutely. You know, this, this is what this place is for. It's to be, uh, used and service to, to the community, and you're very much part of this community,

    Craig (17:36):

    The pandemic. And the months before that, or maybe years before that, have seen, um, a real, uh, polarization of the world and the community over a lot of issues, uh, whether it's political issues, uh, conflict in the world, uh, Me Too movement, Black Lives Matter, um, so many things are, are coming to the fore, do you think there's a connection between everything and of course, social media, which is become increasingly toxic? And I know technology and digital technology is a very important cause close to your heart. I'm wondering if there's a connection between all of these things that seem to be happening all. Are we at a turning point in history?

    Loreena (18:18):

    Well, clearly this is not my training or education, you know, I'm just a very keen and devoted citizen trying to figure it out along with everybody else. But, um, I do feel that, uh, you know, there have, I think quite central to the changes, the fundamental, and, and I would say the more of the disturbing changes that we've seen over the past 10, 15, even 20 years, have been in some way connected to the unregulated internet, and particularly social media. And I, I'm gratified to see that there are governments around the world that are recognizing this and really trying to step up, even though the horse is so far down the road to regulate the, these, these companies. And, um, you know, I've seen, we saw it certainly with the music industry was one of the first industries to be hit by it when there was, uh, illegal downloading and piracy and all, all, all of that.

    Loreena (19:23):

    But we've now seen so many other industries and, and I think part of the, I mean, this, this part of this conversation could go on for quite some time, but, um, it's, it's the, it's almost like the hubris that's existed in, in Silicon Valley and all the tentacles that went out from that, just saying there's, there's, this can only be for good. And I think that we've seen a lot of excellent, really superb applications for technology. I can think of quite a number, uh, sunlight in the medical field, sunlight, you know, in during this pandemic and so on. But we've also seen the, particularly in the social media area, the it being horrifically weaponized, and where one is really seeing that is in child and human development of where children can be using it to bully, or there's, you know, the combination might be suicide, serious addictions, sexting, human trafficking.

    Loreena (20:22):

    There's such, such a long laundry list that, in harm to human beings, and particularly youth who, uh, who have not understood the complex and powerful nature of this technology. But of course, since the election, the US election of 2016, um, and I was watching with great at following along with great alarm, the evolution of Donald Trump, and, uh, then defined to learn that through, actually through a wonderful channel forward of the uk, they did wonderful expose on the Cambridge analytic of Facebook connection and the Russian connection, and then the Russian connection with the, that was rehearsed with the Brexit campaign. So that brings us to our contemporary times. And, and, and I've been quite keen to see, you know, what may be at play at a global, on a global basis. So, for example, I've heard, I, I heard this, a stunning program on the BBC World Service called The Coming Storm by Gabriel Gatehouse, which is trying to delve into the, the, the Q anon the, the January 6th insurrection of the capital and so on, trying to find out where all these links are.

    Loreena (21:38):

    Um, I read this stunning piece out of the Washington Post about the man who's often referred to as Putin's brain called Alexander Dugin, who wrote a book and published it in 1997, called The Foundations of Geopolitics, which referencing how inconvenient, uh, Ukraine is in the worldview that they're wanting to come forward with. I then came across and referenced in that Becoming Storm is another book called The Sovereign Individual, which has influenced many people in Silicon Valley, in particular, Peter Teal, who has been a Trump supporter. And one sees, you know, it's, it's, and you get into the dark, the four chan, the all these dark places in the web that most people, if you're not really interested in the subject, you will not be aware. So I, I'm alarmed at how it has now weaponized our democracies, Um, and it has frankly, radicalized a large part of our population, a large part of the population who we're vulnerable either from, you know, uh, living in, in, in impoverished situations, or because there have been a lot of changes, a lot of changes in the past couple of decades.

    Loreena (22:55):

    So I feel that the internet, uh, particularly some kinds of social media has been very deliberate in the weaponizing, uh, and radicalizing of a large part of the population, many of whom I don't, I believe that they don't even realize they've been radicalized. And that is, you know, you take, I will, I, you know, I, that's how I feel about what happened in Ottawa this past February and the Convoy and so on. Again, many, many people who with good with certain grievances, but you, you can't, you can't, uh, encourage people to, to, uh, dissipate the law. So it, it's a very, very stunning time.

    Craig (23:37):

    You questioned whether or not the horse has already left the barn, and the government of Canada is looking at Bill C 11 and Bill C 18 mm-hmm. <affirmative>, the broadcasting and the internet act. You think Canada on its own, we're just one small piece of the global puzzle. How can we as one country even, uh, hope to change these large corporate, uh, internet giants?

    Loreena (23:57):

    Well, I think these are situations that demand, like, you know, it's like a weapons treaty. Uh, they need to be, uh, dealt with, and I believe they're, they're, they're, or even like treaties to do with like copyright reform, um, that there are, there's certainly Australia, uh, the UK parts of in Europe has really been on this path. Canada, again, has been slow to stand up, uh, as it was with copyright reform. Um, uh, but, uh, I think Canada is, is joining. They're very aware of the, the laws that have been developed and where they're working and maybe where they're not working as well and can make adjustments. But this bill, C 11, is extremely, extremely important. And I feel that I'm, I'm, I'm deeply disturbed by those who frame it as some kind of threat to free speech or something. Because this, we sadly, and this goes back to the radical, the symptoms of radicalization where freedom, the word freedom itself can be a distorted, uh, I mean, really, you know, you see people in Ukraine and you see the Convoy in Ottawa when you, you, how can you even breathe this word,

    Craig (25:12):

    Different concepts of freedom, even here in Stratford, we've got trucks driving up and down the street, uh, during the protests saying, Freedom. Freedom.

    Loreena (25:20):

    Well, yes. And like I say, I mean, I want to be, I want to be sure to take the time to get under the skin of what people's real grievances are, but there's no room for, for ill behavior and, and, and disrespectful conduct. And, and I think, you know, we, it is, this is in our backyard in Stratford, when I was, it was March, Um, it was March when I was speaking with someone in town who shared with me that they had been part of a group locally. Uh, they first connected via Facebook, and when they went, uh, when they went over to their place, they saw a picture on the wall that was a picture of Donald Trump and Melania, on a donkey, with Angel wings. This is hanging in some house here in Stratford. And I say, Wow, this is, this is where this is. So this is not just a subject elsewhere. We have, we are all living in it now, and we all have to really set up and take notice and protect our democracy.

    Craig (26:31):

    I was gonna say that we're not immune from the winds that are sweeping across the world, but one of the challenges that we have is that people don't have a reliable source of information anymore, because our news media has bo been so hamstrung, and there's nothing is a vacuum, uh, uh, that which the social media companies are occupying. And people who don't know, don't know where to get their information from. We don't have anybody curating, uh, balance content

    Loreena (26:59):

    This doesn’t-

    Craig (26:59):

    Or we do but not to the same extent as we need.

    Loreena (27:01):

    Absolutely. I mean, the, the internet companies were, have argued for so, so long that they're just platforms. They're not publishers, and therefore they couldn't be put in the same category as other media companies. But clearly that's not true. And, and that's the biggest, uh, horse that's gotta be put back into the barn to the degree it's possible, meaning that information has to be, it, it has to be, uh, factually correct. And the organizations who are disseminating this need to be held accountable. There are various mechanisms, press councils and so on that the reg the more traditional media have had to adhere to, whereas those, those internet companies have not had to do it. But it does bring to mind, you know, when I was going back to Alexander Dugin, Putin's brain and looking and listening to some of his, his, uh, debates and speeches, um, he, they, they, they, they, he does not subscribe to democracy nor human rights, and they call themselves traditionalists, and they're, they're egging for a different world order.

    Loreena (28:10):

    And that through the, I can't remember which, which from which, uh, book or from which podcast, but there's an effort of trying to break up Europe, Britain, and the us I mean North America. And I think for me this time, I am putting a great deal of weight in that possibility that there are some global forces that are, who have, whose main point is to break, break up civilized society and democracy, and that they have weaponized the internet in order to create divisions and create controversies. And I think the sooner that the average person realized, in some cases they've been weaponized in this, that the, that this is something we have to get in charge of.

    Craig (29:03):

    One of the arguments I read was they, they, one of the arguments is that they're witnessing the moral decay of the West, and they're trying to save humanity from itself as one of the arguments they have for, for trying to break up the west and, and change democracy. But I wanted to ask you, because last November, you were in Romania on Remembrance Day at a very last minute where Canada has a, a NATO base mm-hmm. <affirmative>, and you're the honorary colonel of Roller Canadian Air Force. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Did you ever imagine in November of last year, uh, was there any sort of nervousness about what Putin was doing? You're so close to Ukraine, uh, there from Odessa and Kyon, and places that are being attacked. Could you ever imagine when you were there at that time that we would be in a situation now where we're now in the fourth or fifth month of, uh, a war?

    Loreena (29:51):

    No, You, you, I mean, nobody could imagine that the, at the same time, you know, uh, sitting there at the edge of the Black Sea, um, and you, you know, having a sense of distances and, and I'm, you know, I was roughly aware, I'm not offered classified information by any stretch, but you are aware of what, why everybody's parked there. It's to, to, to keep the Russians in check. Same thing is the Sovereignty Patrol in the North and so on. And this gets into another subject that I feel quite powerfully, uh, about. And that is, you know, the lack of understanding of civics, which includes our Canadian forces. And I would say when I first became an honorary colonel, in 2006, I had so little appreciation of who they were, what they did or, or did for Canadians and so on. And I think this is part of, of what has to change and be strengthened as well, that, that the average citizen really looks, We have a fragile democracy.

    Loreena (30:54):

    We do still hold onto some version of, of rule of law and human rights. This is really, really important to defend, but it is fragile. And, and in order to protect it, we have to understand what's involved in protecting it. Sometimes it means speaking up. Uh, I think of Francis Hogan, the whistleblower from Facebook, I think of, you know, today, this extraordinary woman appearing before the, the, the, uh, uh, January 6th, uh, in, in inquiry. Um, you, you need people like that, but you also need, um, you know, the Canadian forces have, uh, could do with a lot more support. I believe

    (31:38):

    You're listening to the Stratford slice with Craig Thompson. Check out our website, thestratfordslice.com, and be sure to subscribe. And now back to the show,

    Craig (31:50):

    What they could do, and I read in the Globe Mail this morning, that this NATO commitment to increase forces like tenfold over the next few years, the biggest challenge in Canada is recruitment. They're 10% or more behind. Young people don't want to join the forces, uh, especially with what's going on. So how, in your position, sort of as an honorary observer of what's going on, how do we, how do we help the forces, uh, change their image and recruit more people?

    Loreena (32:17):

    Well, I think that civics needs to be taught in a more robust way at, at, in, in the education system. It can't be an, an add on. It can't be, uh, a gratuitous thing. Again, you, we are going to rely upon citizens to protect our democracy, our human rights, and so on. And if, but if, if they have no idea of how it works, how governance works, But I believe that, uh, very strongly that there needs to be more, uh, awareness building and education back in the schools. But that was booted out in many schools. They didn't want anybody from the Canadian forces there in careers day,

    Craig (32:56):

    Don't talk about the war.

    Loreena (32:57):

    Don't, And I mean, I find it, I find it disappointing, um, because it, it shows that people just still do not understand that the Canadian forces do so much more for not only Canadians, but the international community every single day. They not do not just do combat roles, but, uh, peacekeeping, peace making, sovereignty, patrol, search and rescue disaster relief. There's like so many things. And the fact that they're, they've allowed over the past few decades or more to become invisible, uh, uh, without really understanding what they're doing and what they need. They need all kinds of support. I'm stunned by what they're do with so little,

    Craig (33:46):

    Because some of their helicopters can't even fly because they haven't got the parts to fix them, you

    Loreena (33:51):

    Know? Yes. Mean budget cuts. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, they need, they need budget, but they also need a population, a citizenry that understands what they're doing and why they're doing it. And they need the proper political support. They don't need a, it it to be a political football in Ottawa through between the various parties. There, there are people going out risking their lives every single day, um, to, to to, to protect and defend things that are extremely important to Canadians. So, I, I, so I feel that the ed, it starts with education. I would like to see them back in on career days. Um, you know, maybe even consider, uh, one year that is spent, maybe that instead of the fifth year of grade 12, you go in and do some kind of service. I know that there, there are countries that do that. I'd like to see a debate about that at, in the very least, because the, when you look at the skills and the knowledge and the character that was built, uh, I mean by those who joined the forest, is to fight the Second World War. You, it's, it's stunning that that capability and that character and that resourcefulness, that tenacity, uh, is just missing.

    Craig (35:07):

    Now, up until a few years ago, we went to Remembrance Day thinking, Oh, war was something that happened in the past. Yeah. It wasn't gonna happen. Now we see it right on our, on our TV screens every year. But I think part of the issue was after the Vietnam War, you know, the whole thing, make love not war. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> military became, uh, passe. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, we have to replace guns with, uh, diplomacy. And the military became kind of, we don't wanna talk about the military. They're kind of, that's the way we used to do things. Now we're gonna do things differently, making peace, but now we're coming full cycle and we've left our military degrade to the point where we can't even protect our Arctic, you know?

    Loreena (35:45):

    Yeah, Yeah. And, and I mean, I think it's important to make the distinction between the, the, the American military and the Canadian military and I, and because we're so heavily influenced by films and TV and, and books and horrors and everything, you know, they are a very distinct, uh, institution.

    Craig (36:02):

    The aggressor. They're, they're, they're, yeah. Portrayed as the, uh, macho aggressor of the world, the police force of the world, Right?

    Loreena (36:10):

    Yeah. But, um, it's, it's complex now. It's, you know, we are part of NATO, we are part of, of different, uh, international organizations and Canada should be playing a role we shouldn't be doing, taking a free ride. And that begins by reacquainting people with who they are, what they do. I mean, um, yeah, I'm, I'm so amazed. I know that there's been some controversy, serious controversy, uh, uh, with respect to, uh, culture in the, in the Canadian forces. And I know that there's very, very serious efforts to address that. But I do remind myself and others that they're not the only organization or institution, and they're just a very visible one. And they're, they're, they're an organization that prides itself in finding that high bar that is high standards and holding it. So we do expect, but we must remind ourselves that they take in personnel from the general population. So some of the problems that you see in the Canadian forces aren't going on in the general population. So we have to deal with everywhere.

    Craig (37:18):

    How have the issues you've addressed about governance and, and just issues that are affecting our society in general as we're influenced by the world, how has that come to pass in Stratford? I'm talking in particular about a particular industrial glass facility that, uh, came our way during the pandemic.

    Loreena (37:36):

    Yeah.

    Craig (37:37):

    Looking back on that, what do you think was learned, uh, through that, through the Xinyi Glass, uh, and how did it sort of come to be the way it was presented? Do you have any sort of thoughts on that?

    Loreena (37:48):

    Well, it was, um, it was, for me, it was a stunning, uh, event as a citizen, um, stunning from the standpoint that the consequences of there was the project itself, which involved, um, the, the environment involved, water involved, indigenous people, it involved, but setting the, the, the very, um, dubious nature of the plant itself in its suitable place in this location might be a great project in another location, but in this one just seemed to be so out of whack. But for me, the more disturbing part was just the manner in which this project was able to advance as far as it was without the population knowing. And, and so when I first heard about it, it was after some other individuals, it was starting to get, and I thought, What the heck? What is, what is, I realized that, you know, I was able to follow along, um, uh, uh, uh, uh, a process of putting something together that, for which I'm still looking for explanations to be honest.

    Loreena (39:09):

    And there's still, uh, information on that that is outstanding, that I believe the citizens deserve to know. But I think perhaps for me, what was the, the most alarming, uh, piece of it all was the, the annexation of the land that took place in the January where the council and the, the, the counties knew exactly what they were all aiming for. And they had presented, they had presented the public as if while we're just gathering up land to have in a registry of land in case we need it some time, when in actual fact everyone knew that what was being planned was that glass factory. And they had presented this 35 page, what I call the brochure for the public's consumption. And yet you have, you know, people saying, the farmers in the neighborhood saying, this doesn't make any sense. And then a mere, a few weeks later, uh, there was this almost 200 page report that goes to the ministry chapter in verse about Ms and Os and water and, and everything.

    Loreena (40:14):

    And you say, This was just duplicitous. It was just duplicitous. And it was, it was conscious by, and so many people knew, and I felt so badly for, for everybody, for the citizens. I felt badly for a lot of the, the, the, the council members who were, felt like they were stitched up. They couldn't breathe a word. You almost had to communicate with smoke signals. And that's mentally wearing, because some people would, before the project, some people wouldn't, but nobody, nobody could talk about it. And, and even now, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it should be another little good book sometime

    Craig (40:56):

    <laugh> and geopolitics played a role in that too, because the company in question, uh, was from China. Not to say that that was the only reason people protested, but we were in the middle of the conflicts between China, the two Michaels,

    Loreena (41:10):

    Yes, yes, yes.

    Craig (41:11):

    Trust factor and how the story was being portrayed.

    Loreena (41:14):

    Well, I think this is, this is the other thing that's comes to my mind about this, you know, Canadians and this era and so on, and, and, and just how naive <laugh>, you know, uh, and, and, and a permutation of globalization that perhaps if done, well, again, this isn't my schooling, but just having, trying to study it as a citizen, you worry that the formula of globalization has served very few hands and bodies and a lot of other folks, you know, let's say in the manufacturing sector, have been thrown under the bus. And, um, so there's a, it, it, it brought into focus quite a number of, of, of, of points. Um, and who is going to work there. And, uh, but most certainly the international connection concerning China, I mean, l look at what Putin has done to Ukraine. So you realize, you know, he's been lying all these years.

    Loreena (42:15):

    Uh, there we know that there, that, that, that there are big long chess games that go on. And we, as a society and as citizens don't think in those terms. We think in our little democracies, and we, we go to vote every four years and we are pretty a but we're, we're not. We've never tasted the vulnerability of threat like that. That really sharpens your mind and saying, you know, can I really believe that these 130,000 troops that are surrounding Ukraine are there just to, you know, practice. It's, it's so, so the, it, so in the glass factory, there was this worry that it was just one more in international ingredient into that, that we just cannot, must not lose control of the resources that allow us to be an independent nation and where we can supply our own needs of, of, of very important things like PPE and so on. Um, so for me, I think it, and for many, it just, it just rattled people. There were just too many things that were too significant without a public conversation and a public discussion. And, and I think at the end of the day, all, when you added up all those things, it was just horrifically unnerving and really completely lost the trust of the, of many citizens with respect to the local council. And I know there's some good people in that council.

    Craig (43:45):

    We have the opportunity every four years to vote. And, uh, sadly in the provincial election, the turnout was one of the lowest ever. Can't remember the exact percentage, but I believe it was below 50% or somewhere in that area. And in municipal politics is usually lower. And we have an election coming up in, in October. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, how do you counter the apathy cuz people are living in a town like this, just worry about their own backyard and not really the bigger picture. How do you get them out to, to take action?

    Loreena (44:18):

    Well, I think those who were paying attention to the glass factory and, and who were alarmed by that whole thing, I think they still are very mobilized. Um, uh, beyond that, I don't, I don't think there's a, a quick answer to that, Craig. I fear that, uh, people and societies actually have to fall into some really crummy situations to liven folks up. To say that that voting and being engaged as a citizen is, is your basic duty, uh, to democracy. And, um, we've had it pretty comfortable and pretty threat free for a very long time. So I don't see any quick way about it. Again, short of doing what we can in, within the education system and, and ensuring that as many of those dots are connected there for youth, I know with my son, um, he's very, he's he's very much taken up my, um, interest in civics and history and, and geography and and so on. So, but, um, it's like that

    Craig (45:28):

    There's so many things shifting here in Stratford. Do you think we have the opportunity to be a model community?

    Loreena (45:35):

    I do. I think we have an incredible opportunity right now. Um, at the same time, I think there's ano an opportunity, things could be where, where things could really not be for the common good. I worry sometimes that this, this lovely community will become like a little Monaco that'll be, uh, more for people who are well healed. Uh, and, uh, I, I think that there are some really, I think every single community has the moral duty to get their environmental footprint under control and as it pertains to climate change and be very, very serious about that and not tinkering around the edges. Um, but I also think that it's looking for that right composition of businesses and industries that are complimentary. Um, you know, when I think, and, uh, and I think we've talked a bit before there's so many incredible resources here in Stratford, uh, that have to do with, uh, the arts and acting.

    Loreena (46:44):

    And, uh, but I, I genuinely feel this should be much more here in terms of film or television production. It's so ripe for that. Uh, but also we're sitting in a geographical area, which is some of the best farmland in the continent, and we must not be paving over it. We have to find, uh, those complimentary, uh, businesses, um, that, that respect that. And yet making sure that there's a diversity. I I mean, I personally feel, you know, that it's good to have manufacturing. It's good to have a whole bunch of things, but I don't, I, after the Glass factory, uh, exercise, I didn't, I didn't come away with the confidence that there's a good handle on that formula. But I think the, the official plan is, is, is coming up, uh, for this city and citizens have an opportunity to, to partake in that, to the degree that it, it, it, it influences things, but people, yeah, I, I think there is a, a tremendous opportunity, but it must not turn in, in my my hope. It it doesn't become so financially, uh, unreachable for average and people just to, just to have a life here.

    Craig (48:03):

    Stratford is a community for the people who live here, but it's also a brand, it's well known around the world, around North America. For the people who are listening who may not live here, but visit, visit here time to time, how can they help or how can they get involved? Is there a role for, for external forces to play?

    Loreena (48:20):

    <laugh> Um, I, I'm not sure what you, you may have in mind when you ask that question. I mean, you know, so for example, we all have choices. Um, and, and, and as you, as we mentioned earlier, I've had deep concerns about the unregulated internet. Uh, I would welcome people to go and stay in bed and breakfast before, I mean, I think there's, there's regulation that's coming in about Airbnb type of thing. Um, so there's those personal choices when you're coming in and, and supporting local restaurants and and so on. But I think if there are people, uh, who who are, who may be listening to this and say, Ah, okay, the composition of Stratford, and it's at this kind of, it can be at a crossroad right now. There's, there's definitely opportunity for, um, certainly within the arts. Uh, I, I can see, but I would like to see a, an overarching business arts, arts business plan. And I know one of the councilors, Jo-Dee Burbach had spoken of this at a council meeting over a year ago. And that helps bring all the elements together. I think of the Knox church where I've performed concerts, stunning, uh, stunning sanctuary. Well just, you know, today or tomorrow, it changes hands and it's, uh, it's, it's, you know, there's gonna need to be a, uh, a lot of community thought and work, uh, in terms of keeping that, that building, uh, alive and relevant into this community. And so it doesn't come down.

    Craig (49:59):

    Well, I guess what I was referring to was, there's a lot of people who've come into Stratford, either recently or, or visiting who are playing a role in the community. The new Tom Patterson theater got all the money from outside mm-hmm. <affirmative>. So we're kind of visible more than another community our size just because of our brand. So Stratford has that, that stature that most small towns of 32, 30 5,000 wouldn't have. So what we do here affects more than just the people who live here. It affects the people who interact with Stratford in a whole myriad of ways.

    Loreena (50:32):

    Yes, yes, yes

    Craig (50:32):

    Yes. You have to be conscious, very careful of what that strategic plan is, uh, going forward

    Loreena (50:37):

    Absolutely. Absolutely. And I think that, you know, I'd also feel that there's opportunities for a city this size, because when you get so much bigger, sometimes things become so unwieldy. But to be a leader in terms of, um, of, of certain kinds of urban design and architecture that is completely, uh, climate focused, I think there's incredible, I'd like to see a moratorium on the suburbs that are being pa you know, paving over the farmland. That's, that's, that's the bad practice of 50, 60, 70 years ago. We know better than that now, and there's gotta be some sense. So I feel that there's those kinds of opportunities and, uh, mixing the arts in with the, the food arts. And so <laugh>,

    Craig (51:21):

    So we started off talking about your music, Loreena, what obviously performing arts and musical creativity has been challenging over the last couple years, apart from a few concerts here and there and some online things. What is in your plans for the future? Cuz you still have a lot of people looking to see and hear you around the world. What, uh, what are you trying to figure out?

    Loreena (51:46):

    Well, we have, uh, I mean, it's been three years since we've toured. Um, so we have about eight dates set in October and November of this, this, uh, year in, in Hamilton, Toronto, Ottawa, Montreal, Quebec City type of thing. Uh, we felt we wanted to do that close in, not a whole big tour, just in case the pandemic kind of, there's another wave, um, that we had hoped, we had hoped that we could go back into Europe in March of 23. And we're still holding the footprint of that tour. It's all, it's all ready to go except we're trying to get insurance. Uh, so for example, the Chucks and buses and equipment, just that line item alone is over 300,000 euros for insurance for No, no, no. That's the cost. Awesome. So if we, if I get sick and can't tour I for, I have to go forfeit, I have to forfeit that. So we are obliged to pay 50% on com on to hold the equipment and 50, the final 50% just before we'd go out on tour. So I've paid that $300,000 bill. Um,

    Craig (52:56):

    But you can't insure anything

    Loreena (52:57):

    But I can't insure against it. So right now, we, we've, we were speaking with an insurance company from, uh, London, England last week, and my agent had put me in touch with them and them with us, because I, I just said this has to change. So anyway, we're, we're, we're, we're looking to hopefully, um, you know, it won't be without risk. Um,

    Craig (53:20):

    And that's not just you, that's all performers out there

    Loreena (53:22):

    Right now. Oh, for sure. Like

    Craig (53:23):

    What happened to Justin Bieber's?

    Loreena (53:24):

    Yeah. Yeah.

    Craig (53:25):

    He had the facial paralysis, he had to cancel all of his,

    Loreena (53:29):

    But that would be covered by insurance. It's just, Covid is not, it's

    Craig (53:32):

    Covid only.

    Loreena (53:33):

    Covid is not. And so the insurance companies are trying to, they've been dealing with the TV and, and theater, but it seems one of the last, uh, zones of the arts as the touring world. And if you can imagine, you know, in my situation, we're doing the likes of Massey Hall, a pla dza. You're sitting indoor, indoor, indoor venues, and you're in, in front of two, 2000, 2,500 people, you know, night after night. Uh, you know, even if I ask everybody to come in with their mask on, I have to sing with my mask off.

    Craig (54:08):

    <laugh>. And you have to forget all the stresses of what's been going on during the day and then be a different person on stage.

    Loreena (54:14):

    Well, it's not just that, you know, after the, after the performance, we all go into tour buses

    Loreena (54:19):

    Together. Well, yes. I mean, there's, there would be like, uh, three buses, one for the crew and, and one for the band, and one for my, you know, team, team. And so it can be like an incubator. And, and so there's like, we, this past week, we're just going through all these details. So, um, and we have another, uh, hopefully the second chapter of a European tour, um, earmark for next summer. Um, we're talking with our agent about going into the, uh, northeast of the United States in the fall. Um, so we're trying to see how we can proceed forward. Um, but it is very, it's very, very tricky. It's very, very tricky, largely now because of the covid consideration.

    Craig (55:08):

    So in terms of new material, are you using any of the things that have gone on the last few years to try to tell news stories through music? What do you, what have you changed direction at all, or

    Loreena (55:19):

    It's, it's funny you should ask that because I say to myself this, when you think, Well, God, you know, with everything going on, this should be a very, uh, fertile time to be coming up with, you know, Although I've always, you know, primarily drawn upon the history of the Celts and, but I also try to bring those certain historical things into a contemporary

    Craig (55:39):

    They're parallels, but history that's going on today.

    Loreena (55:42):

    But, um, no, uh, unfortunately there hasn't been too much time to, to create, I, I need to pull myself away from my managerial role and all the, the mortal things that keep my feet on the ground and, and, you know, put myself on a train in, I don't know, Ista or <laugh>

    Craig (56:03):

    A retreat for a few weeks or yeah. The right. But, uh,

    Loreena (56:07):

    Yeah. But, you know, uh, you know, if this is, I've been thinking even like in 2019, we just released Lost Souls and the title really captured kind of this, my own feeling of this growing storm. We had didn't have the covid, we didn't have Ukraine, but I just thought, you know, we're not where we need to be. And, and I thought, um, I, I'm gonna put things on pause for a while. I want to, I needed to spend some time with my family to get things aligned for my son's look education. Um, but I wanted to recalibrate and, and, and be part of the community, because that's one of the other downsides of, of touring and, and being

    Craig (56:53):

    You lose touch.

    Loreena (56:54):

    Yeah, you lose touch. And I, I think the other, the other thing why I've chosen to live in this community to stay connected is that I lived here under the radar long before I became a well known person. And it allows me as normal a lifestyle as I can possibly imagine. So, um, but I, I, uh, um, we'll, we'll, we'll see what the next year so brings Great,

    Craig (57:18):

    Well, thanks for sharing your time with us, and it was great to have this chat with you.

    Loreena (57:23):

    Well thank you, great chat with you, Craig.

    (57:25):

    You've been listening to the Stratford Slice with Craig Thompson. For more episodes, check out our website, thestratfordslice.com, and be sure to subscribe. The Stratford slice is produced by Ballinran Entertainment, Southwestern Ontario's number one digital media studio. If you have a great story to tell and want to be on the podcast, please reach out to us through our website, thestratfordslice.com.

  • (00:00):

    The following is a podcast from Ballinran Entertainment.

    Craig Thompson (00:06):

    Hello, it's Craig Thompson, and this is the Stratford Slice. Not many people could claim to be Justin Bieber's best friend forever, but my guest today can not only say that, but he has a great story behind that. From hard Scrabble sports reporter to managing editor of the local paper to general manager of the Stratford Perth Museum. John Kastner has built his career on telling personal stories. He has been able to transform a small town museum into an internationally recognized destination that collaborates with museums in Canada and abroad. But I think the highlight for John, at least the stories he likes to tell, have to do with being able to pick up the phone anytime and chat with Justin Bieber. My guest today, John Kastner. John, welcome to the Stratford slice.

    John Kastner (01:08):

    Thanks so much, Craig.

    Craig (01:10):

    So let's start with Justin Bieber. How did that all come about?

    John (01:13):

    Well, I should say that is the fact that I can pick up the phone and call at a drop is, is a bit of a stretch, Uh, but, uh, certainly the relationship the Stratford Perth Museum has with Justin Bieber, with, uh, Scooter Braun, the company, and in particular, most importantly, Justin's grandparents has really transformed the Stratford Perth Museum. Without question. Um, we had talked for a number of years about a Justin Bieber exhibit. It's certainly off mission for most museums, but I think every museum in North America, maybe the world, uh, tries to appeal to a different demographic and tries to have what we refer to as, uh, sort of non-core exhibits. Something a little bit outta the ordinary. So we'd always sort of had that in the back of her mind. We had an exhibit fall through and um, at a meeting we'd had at the museum where we talked about strategy and the upcoming year, we sort of said, Is it time to pursue a Justin Bieber exhibit?

    John (02:15):

    It had been talked about a number of times during my, uh, tenure. I started in 2013. This was 2017. And, um, I had a chance, uh, meeting with, uh, Diane and Bruce Dale, who's his, who are his grandparents, floated the idea with them. And they said, First things first, You should come to our house and you should see what we have. It went to the house and it was amazing. It was, it was, I often say, I don't know where my degree from Wilfrid Laurier is. And they have Justin's first library card, and they have track and field medals and cross country ribbons, and his minor hockey jacket from when he was 10, and they had literally hundreds of things. So we decided that there was enough stuff here for an exhibit. Uh, we reached out to Scooter Braun and his company and we had a terrific conference call. But prior to that, probably the critical thing was I met, uh, we set up a meeting with Justin through his grandparents, and I met him at the Huron Street Tim Hortons on a Saturday morning at nine o'clock. And ironically, we met there and he was getting a coffee and he said, We'll go sit over here. And he said, We have, just so you know, we have 15 minutes. I said, Okay, you have to go. He said, No, we'll have 15 minutes

    Craig (03:42):

    Before the crowds descend.

    John (03:43):

    And it was about minute 12, you could start to see people collect outside. And, uh, all of a sudden he said, I gotta go. And, but we'd shook hands and he sent me a text and he said, I'm good to do with whatever you want. Uh, Scooter will call you next week. And we set up a call and we had a conference call with Scooter and Universal Music and bravado who did merchandise and et cetera. And, and then it, it, to be honest, Craig, it's, it's changed the museum.

    Craig (04:12):

    It was meant to be maybe a temporary or fill in exhibit. And then, uh, it's become a almost a permanent fixture, uh, there, and you have a map on the wall with little pins showing where people, uh, come from. It's as it exceeded your wildest expectations.

    John (04:26):

    Yeah, it exceeded our wildest expectations. I would say the Beacon Herald was there on a Thursday and where we announced what our exhibits for the next year were gonna be, and we had the Franklin Expedition exhibit from the ROM. Uh, we had a traveling exhibit from the Harper Lee Museum in Monroeville, Alabama. And the third thing was the Justin Bieber exhibit. And I presented them in that order. And, uh, quite incredibly, the Beacon Herald posted that on their website as they do, and then someone, me from Canadian Press, and I spent the rest of the day on the phone, and I came to work on the Friday morning, and there was two TV crews in the parking lot at the museum. And I spent the rest of the next day doing interviews with local radio stations all over. And on the Friday night, I was on the CTV National News and on the national, and it was, and then Saturday was the exact same.

    John (05:31):

    I did an interview with the radio station in Germany. Uh, I was starting to field calls, but the real kicker was that I knew things had changed when, uh, Sunday morning was up at a friend's cottage and I took my laptop with me about 8:30 phone rang and person said, Hi, I understand a heavier media release here. We've picked it up from Canadian Press. Uh, there's some images you've made available. I'd like to use one of those images. But my photo editor said, I have to get permission from you and you have to send me the picture with permission to use it and the photo credit. I said, Sure. So I had my laptop for that reason. I said, So who's this going to? What's going to People Magazine? I said, Really? So I sent a couple images to People Magazine and before I got off the phone, I said, Just outta curiosity, how would you get my cell number?

    John (06:25):

    And I said, Which I hadn't made public. And this is one of the funny stories. We actually ended up writing a book about that first year because there was so many strange, curious things. She said, Well, we Googled your name and we saw that you were involved with Hockey Day in Canada when it was in Stratford. I said, Right. And said, We have an intern here who was at the CBC and they phoned somebody at the CBC to, if they, who they knew, to see if they had your cell phone. And a guy named Scott Darling had my cell phone number. And next, you know, she called me. We were, I was driving about an hour later, the old, you'd appreciate this, the old Casey Kasem show, America's Top 40. So we're driving and it's on sirius radio. We're listening to it, and it says, Ryan Seacrest says, And when we come back, we're gonna talk about it, Justin Bieber exhibit in his hometown of Stratford, Ontario, Canada.

    John (07:21):

    And I went, I came into work Monday morning, and McKayla, Fitz Simmons looks after our exhibits and I said, We have a problem. She goes, Yes, yes, we do. I said, We were gonna have, uh, one room exhibit with about 20 things. I said, told her what had happened over the weekend story I just told you. And she said, I just got a phone with a tour company from India who's interested in bringing 40 people for the opening day. And last thing I'll tell you about being overwhelmed was about, it opened on February the 18th, the Sunday before Family Day. Custodian called me at seven o'clock and he said, John, what's going on at the museum? <laugh>? I says, Why? I said, There's a whole bunch of people in the parking lot. Some of us slept here overnight, and we opened the museum. I rushed out there and we opened the museum doors at nine o'clock, cuz there's about a hundred people lined up as about Celsius minus 16 minus 17. And so we've been, we've been surprised every day, uh, like today, you know, as we're sitting here, you know, Justin's supposed to, was supposed to have a concert Titan trial. We had people in our museum day from Los Angeles, San Jose, Vancouver, Amarillo, Texas, and that was today. And that's a, that's not an incredibly unusual day.

    Craig (08:40):

    And you had the gap for Covid.

    John (08:42):

    Yeah, for us, that was for us. Uh, at our annual meeting of February, we talk about linear numbers. It helps people really recognize the impact that Covid had on us. So at our annual meeting of February when we were still closed, we didn't open until May. Uh, we had been closed for 55 of 92 weeks closed. And I know some places were slow, some places, you know, were off, We were closed for 55 and 92 weeks. So the fact that we're here and, uh, okay, I think is a great, is a great accomplishment, and there's a lot of fingerprints on that. And we got a lot of support from different levels of government and sponsors and et cetera. But we're here

    Craig (09:27):

    And I take it, Justin Bieber has seen the exhibit a few times. What is his reaction? Is he surprised at the popularity? How does he respond when you tell him the stories and show him the map, uh, with all those pins?

    John (09:39):

    Yeah, I think the one thing that he said was, and it was so correct, the first time he came through, he was with his grandparents and his mom, and they walked through, he said, It's just so surreal to see a museum that is, it's stuff that’s mine. And I didn't even know that my grandparents had my library card or that my, you know, running shoes from grade one or my high school basketball jersey and all these, you know, and then, uh, a, a Grammy award or Teen Choice award surfboards, or a letter from Obama and those, that great spectrum of, of things. And he said, It's just so surreal. And when he came through, the next time he, uh, he came through with Hailey and they stopped and they talked to people and he, you know, acapella songs of people and quite enjoyed it. One day he rode out there on a Sunday morning, he was supposed to meet somebody at a local restaurant, Madelyn's, one of his favorite restaurants.

    John (10:34):

    And those people were late. So he rode his bike out to the museum and came out by himself and sort of wandered through and said, Hi, bye, and went through the museum. So I think one of the great testaments for us is that, uh, two real takeaways for us. One is that he really likes it, which is important. Scooter and all those other people that all along the way could have said, No, no, no, we don't want to do this. The fact that along the way they've been absolutely nothing short of astounding. And our big concern, when we talked about the very genesis of this, when we had that pivotal Monday morning and said, We need to do, we need to have a much bigger exhibit than we'd planned. And then in sort of two months created this much bigger, much more robust exhibit and had all sorts of support, either financially or like, for example, the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame was very helpful to us.

    John (11:28):

    We made a cold call to them. We took a picture of the room, of the galleries, sent them pictures of some of the items we had. They helped us with a design just out of the, just a cold call to the receptionist and said, This is where we're calling from. And they were unbelievably helpful. And, uh, I think the biggest takeaway for us is regardless where the people come from Vegas or Florida, or China or Paris, when we opened the doors, the first two people were from Montreal in Fort Wayne, Indiana. Those were four people who'd met at a Stratford hotel. The next four people in line were from Paris, and they had flown in and they'd flown in on the Friday to go to this exhibit. So our takeaway, I think, is that nobody's ever said, I came all this way and this exhibit's not very good. You know, universally, people come and go, Well, that was great. And for a small museum like us we're, I'm, we're really proud of that.

    Craig (12:24):

    What is it about the exhibit? Is it that people come to a small town and realize any dream is possible? Uh, what is the sort of the underlying theme that draws people apart from his popularity as a, as a performer?

    John (12:36):

    Yeah, I think, I think the one is that there's a real, uh, for people our age, we think about, uh, you know, maybe somebody like Elvis or the Beatles, that there is more for whatever reason, and I can't, I'm, I've never attempted to explain it for whatever reason, there is more of a personal connection with him. And I don't know whether it's his concerts, I don't know whether it's music outta his persona, how he markets himself, et cetera. But people talk regularly about how I have a connection. I've just always felt a connection with him, or we have the same birthday, or I was at such and such. And you know, a lot of things happen to him, happen to me. So that's one is that there is a different level of what I would say fandom for that. Like, I really like Bob Seger.

    John (13:25):

    I wouldn't go around the world to see him like I, it, I like his music, et cetera. But there is something else about this that I've often say, I don't understand it, but nor need, do I understand it? I don't have to understand it. The other thing I see more and more is that the typical patron for us, visitor for us is not a 13 or 14 year old girl. It's a girl who was 13 or 12 or 13 and and now she's 26, 27. And we're sort of, I would say university age or older. Um, sometimes married with, you know, a couple of young kids until, so these are people who look at a lot of our exhibits and go, Oh, I remember that. Or I remember that concert. Or they'll be a picture of a concert and I remember that or remember this. So it's like you or I going to the Montreal Forum and, you know, seeing things that remind us of our teen years or our early love of hockey or, So there is a now almost a, a generational attachment to, to the exhibit. And to be in a is the term a lot of people use being a believer. They, they've almost grown up with him and his struggles are not, uh, you know, were not secret. And I think that people, lots of people have struggles, whether it be mental health or addiction issues or unhappiness or depression. And I think the fact that his struggles were very public, uh, that resonates with some people.

    Craig (15:04):

    Now you're telling stories at a museum, and you did that for many decades. You were in the newspaper industry as a, as a journalist. Let's go back and talk about your, your career. And, uh, you worked at one of the last truly independent, uh, family run newspapers in Canada, the Stratford, uh, Beacon Herald, where I also, uh, started my career way back. And, uh, tell me about sort of your career and how you, how that path led you to the museum today.

    John (15:37):

    It was very interesting. And you know, when we talk about telling stories, I mean very, you know, very aptly that's that's what we did. We particularly, we wrote stories, we chronicled things, uh, we collected information, collated it into a story. But as an editorial writer or a column or uh, things like that, I think that, uh, you, you've got more latitude to tell stories to pick out the interesting part of a, of a story of a hockey game, of a council meeting, of an event. When I got hired at the museum, it was one of those funny sort of family kitchen table stories. I'd, I'd taken a buyout at the Beacon Herald in December of 2012.

    Craig (16:21):

    You were managing editor at the time? Yeah,

    John (16:22):

    Yeah. I finished my last, my last 13 years I was managing editor. I ran the newsroom and I was in charge of everything that went the paper other than the advertisements as I always said. And I remember taking the buyout, which was fine. It was, it was in every way. It was time. And that was fine. And I was gonna take my time to find a new job. And I got, uh, my brother called me and said, There's an ad in the globe mail about the, being a general manager at the Stratford Perth Museum. You should be interested in this. And someone had some, uh, person who cared about the museum was on the board, said, Well, I'll, I'll pay for an ad in the Globe and Mail cuz the museum didn't have the money to do that. And, uh, so I applied for it. And, uh, David Stones, who was a board chair, he said that out of the eight people that the interviewed for the job, I was the only person who didn't work at a museum. And I remember he, him saying to me that we need someone to tell stories and they need to be interesting, and that's what you do and I think you're gonna be okay. But I remember going home and saying to my two kids, Alex and Adam, and I said, Guys, I'm coming outta retirement and I'm, uh, gonna run the Stratford Perth Museum. And Adam said to me, he said, Don't you have to bend to a museum before you run a museum.

    Craig (17:39):

    <laugh>,

    John (17:40):

    Of course I'd been to a museum, but it was a point well taken nonetheless.

    Craig (17:44):

    So when you first went in there, obviously it was a very different museum than it was today. We have a large military history, we have a farming background. What was the museum when you walked into it, when you first took on the job?

    John (17:58):

    Yeah, so the museum, fortunately the board was very aware that what they had wasn't, uh, sufficient. It, that it wasn't viable, it didn't have very many visitors and they were aware of that. So there was a real atmosphere that was gonna welcome change. Even though, you know, a museum board is made up of people who are, you know, uh, mature, successful, and not always receptive to dramatic change. I remember during the interview process, they said, uh, what would you do to make the museum, uh, more relevant and what would you do to make it more successful? And I thought this was sort of the end of the interview when I said, Well, I have no idea. I said, But in six months I think I'll have a really good idea. But I don't know right now. And it wasn't six months before I realized that we had a very significant agricultural exhibit. We had a sort of a music exhibit, uh, we had a large areas for storage. We had logistical issues about, you know, which store was the best for entrance. And we went at it, we went at it pretty hard, but the real, to make change and to restructure the place. But the real change, I really have to say was organic. When, uh, Antoni Cimolino called me and he asked me if the museum was interested in showing Shakespeare's first folio.

    Craig (19:20):

    And Antoni, of course is the, uh, director of the Stratford Festival.

    John (19:24):

    Yeah. And they had had her arrangement to show Shakespeare's first folio, one of the, you know, 1634 books valid around $21 million, widely considered to be, if you listen to people in that industry, they say maybe one of the most important books written in the English language. The Bible of course, was translated in English, but is Shakespeare's first folio, one of the most important books written in English. It compiles all of his works. It's referred to over and over to get the true meaning of plays, et cetera. And, uh, the festival wanted to head an agreement to show it. And then part of the agreement was you could only show it at an art gallery or at a museum. And Anthony called me and said, Would you like to show Shakespeare first's folio? And I said, I'm an English major, I'm a history major. I said, What?

    John (20:14):

    And he said, We, we have, we have a loan agreement for this and we'd like to transfer that to the museum. Said absolutely. He says, Do you wanna check with your board? And I said, No, no. Like, no. And, uh, so again, linear, we talked about this at the start. Our first, my first year there, we had 853 people over 365 days. Uh, that weekend we had Shakespeare's first folio, we had a person a minute, we sold tickets, we had to sell tickets in advance for security reasons. So we had everybody's identity. We had their name, address and phone number of every person that came in. So we had the tickets had to be online, and we sold, we sold, well, I say we sold 60 tickets an hour, which is a person, a minute, some hours we'd pushed that a little bit. We had 90, maybe even a hundred people an hour.

    John (21:05):

    So that weekend we had 3,800 people through the museum that Saturday and Sunday. And I, at that point, I went to the board and I said, Here's the thing, There's the thing, because of the 600,000 people that come to Stratford because of the Stratford Festival, a play is three hours long. They're here for three days. What are they gonna do in those times between, that's us. I said, We have to be that thing. So let's go get exhibits of national, international interest. People will come, I'm telling you. So the next year we got the Anne Frank House exhibit from Amsterdam, and we put 10,000 people through the museum and we got exhibit from the ROM, a great exhibit from the art gallery material to Monroe County Museum in Monroeville, Alabama at Harper Lee Exhibit. And then in 2018, the Justin Bieber exhibit, which had real international interest in 2018, we did, we did about 18,000 people from 853 people in 2013.

    Craig (22:11):

    And you've demonstrated that even though we are in a small town or a tourist town, even, even though we're a tourist town, a small museum can really, uh, achieve great things by partnering with larger organizations and more internationally recognized exhibits.

    John (22:27):

    A hundred percent. And I think the thing is for us is that we've been really fortunate that when we, someone will make a call for us to the ram, and maybe it's someone who's on our board who used to be on their board, or maybe it's someone like with the Ram, it was a person from Stratford named Tim McDonald, who was him, Jim, him and Jim Balsillie were very involved in the Franklin Expedition. And he says, Would would you like to have that exhibit in Stratford? Yes. He makes a call to the ro the person calls me next. You know, we have that exhibit, but with the Anne Frank House, that was, that was, you know, the Stratford Festival broke the ice for us there made first contact with them and the Harper League exhibit, which I thought was incredible exhibit from Alabama, that was a cold call, looked up the place. I said, Somewhere there's a museum about To Kill A Mockingbird

    Craig (23:20):

    Which was on stage at the Stratford Festival

    John (23:22):

    Yeah. And, and that's a lot of what we did, Craig, is the year we had the Anne Frank exhibit. The Stratford Festival was doing Diary of Anne Frank. Right. The year we had the Franklin Expedition exhibit, the Festival was doing a play called the Breathing Hole. And that's in the year we Harper Lee Exhibit they were doing to Kill a Mockingbird. And we were always, for two or three years in a row, we were fortunate to able to match up and exhibit to go with that. We did lion witch and the wardrobe the one year we did a great kid's exhibit about the lion witch and the wardrobe. And so

    Craig (23:53):

    Connecting the stories.

    John (23:54):

    Yeah. And we really wanted to use a NASCAR term, you know, draft in behind the festival this great big, this great big machine and somehow get in behind them. And the nicest part of what that is, the festival said, No problem. Great. Glad. That's terrific. Gives our patrons a quality experience, often festival related to do during those other hours when they're not a bum in a seat.

    (24:21):

    You're listening to the Stratford Slice with Craig Thompson. Check out our website, thestratfordslice.com, and be sure to subscribe. And now back to the show

    Craig (24:34):

    As we're going into this digital age, a lot of museums, large and small, are rethinking what their purpose is and how they're going to, you know, advance, uh, into the future. And as you know, many museums have much more in storage than they do on Yeah. On display. What lessons do you think you've learned and is the Stratford Perth Museum success being looked at by other museums to see, well, here's how a small museum is managed, not only to survive but to thrive.

    John (24:59):

    I think one of the things we've had, we've had people come and visit us, you know, uh, I remember, I won't say the name of the community, but it was a, you know, a community within a hundred kilometers of here who said, you know, brought their entire town council and their museum manager and their museum staff, and they wanted to tour the Stratford Perth Museum said, you know, why can't our, why can't our museum be this busy? I felt terrible for the staff person who was, you know, loaded up in a school bus and came up there and I said, Well, don't forget, there's more people come to the Stratford Festival than go to see the Ottawa Senators in a year. I said, you know, this is the city, 33,000, we have 650,000 people come to the festival. There's about 600,000 see the Ottawa Senators, you think about the economic impact of an NHL team on a community, and that's the city of a million here.

    John (25:53):

    I said, We've got the incredible advantage of having a whole bunch of people walking around here every day from May until October, who are interested in culture to begin with, have free time, and have the acumen and the ability to go out to the festival, and by extension to a museum, which is not an unrelated thing. This museum here is really fortunate to, uh, to have the drafter festivals or neighbor, the economic driver tourism machine here in Stratford. And, um, I think the only thing that we deserve credit for at the museum is that we realized that there was something there that partnering with the festival, creating exhibits of interest, either about the festival, Anne Frank, Harper Lee, or the idea that there was, people will come here to see something and they don't mind coming from, I'm not kidding, Las Vegas or Los Angeles or Vancouver and Montreal. And that's, that's this week

    Craig (27:07):

    When you first took the job, you mentioned that one of the things that you were taken aback by was the fact that you could look through these old, um, I'm not sure what you call 'em, the books, registry books of Perth County from 1800s, and you discovered your own family members there. Right. Tell us about that. Where does your family, how do you trace your family roots to Perth County?

    John (27:29):

    Well, in, well there was Stratford Perth Museum. For those who have been to Stratford, it's 300 meters outside, Stratford towards Seaville. And, uh, in my resume, the first, or the cover letter rather perhaps the first creative writing storytelling was I said that I've always had an interest in history. And that's true. I have a degree in history as well as a degree in English. And I said, so I've always had an interest in history, particularly local history. And I said, my ancestors walked right past this building on route to where they cleared property in Castorville, in Sebringville, which is about a kilometer west of the museum, I think maybe two kilometers. And that's where my family settled. And that was in 1832. Uh, some of the first people west of Stratford in Ontario.

    Craig (28:22):

    Yeah, because Stratford became a town in 1837. Didn't there? Something like that?

    John (28:25):

    Yeah. Right. Yeah. So in 1832, they came from a place in, in Alcase, uh, there was 52 people left at the same time, refugees, uh, right after the Napoleonic Wars, they were German speaking. And that area got overtaken by the French and they were essentially refugees. And they, 52 people from that community and made the way to New York City and then through the Erie Canal and took all to the Canada company, got properties and tracked towards Seaville. And here I am.

    Craig (28:58):

    Wow. And you skip forward, uh, maybe into the, the period of the war because Stratford also has a very strong, uh, connection to the Netherlands through the Perth regimen. And you're also a big military history, uh, buff, aren't you?

    John (29:12):

    Yeah. So the Perth regimens, you know, very interesting history. The fact that it fought through the gothic line and through Italy, which was really the tough, really the tough sledding of the war. Very house to house and through incredible terrain. And, uh, the Perth Regiment always sort of bragged, but they were identified as D-Day Dodgers because they were still fighting in the Alps, uh, and through Italy when, uh, when D-Day took place. But after that, after they, the victory in, in Italy, they all went to the Netherlands and then had an equally terrible task of liberating the Netherlands and going through what was called the lowlands. And through the spring and mud and water and cold, and again, going house to house. That was one of the interesting connections to the Anne Frank House exhibit when we talked about how 8% of Perth County identifies as being Dutch. And part of that was the postwar migration with the relationships that were built with Canada because of, because of liberation.

    Craig (30:15):

    Let's talk about your fascination with history. You told me the story once about watching Churchill's funeral or your mother watching Churchills funeral on, on television. Right. What was that moment for you?

    John (30:26):

    My mother was British. She was a war bride. And she'd met my dad in London, uh, during the, obviously during the Second World War. And she came here in 1946. She was a very proud Brit, uh, is, I said, you know, I'm sort of five generations, I think in, in Canada, but there was a lot of, uh, British influence on her house. And my mother was, uh, she worked at the radio station at Stratford. She was involved in the media as well. And, uh, I remember two or three things where she would plant you down in front of, First of all, we read Voraciously and, but she would plant you down in front of the tv. And I remember, I remember two or three things in my lifetime that were, you know, sit here and we're, we're gonna watch this. And one was a man on the moon.

    John (31:13):

    Uh, the other was Churchills funeral. And I remember her just bawling, just in absolute tears as an, even when I was in London a few years ago, I remember looking at the Thames River and, you know, it went to, uh, St. Paul's and saw, you know, pictures there of Churchill's funeral and pictures of the war. And, and then, um, you know, Churchill, the, the service was at St. Paul's. And, and then I remember one of the images of all the, because the temps was very much a working river and all the great big, uh, towers and cranes, as they all lowered, as, as Churchills funeral barge made its way south down to, uh, down Tolen to where he is buried at planet palaces, family home. And I remember, I was not very old, but there at that, you know, your interest in history comes from, as we get older, we say, you know, why was I so interested in history? And it was very much a, it was very much a genetic thing, I think, or imparted upon me maybe a combination of both.

    Craig (32:15):

    Well, Stratford is also very much a hockey town. And in fact, that's how you and I met way back when we were playing backyard hockey. I recall that you were always very good in the corners and, and if you're good in the corners, you're, you have a, a way of, uh, fighting yourself out of any situation. And I'm wondering sort of how did that the, the sports sort of guide you, uh, into your career and you were a sports reporter at the, at the Beacon Herald, and you continue to have sports in your life.

    John (32:45):

    Yeah, and I've, I think that that's, um, you know, one of the things I'm concerned about with youth today is that there's, there's no question people are less interested in sports from a participatory standpoint. That's, those are numbers. Uh, I think that athletics and sports and those sorts of, uh, competitive values combined with, uh, sportsmanship and perspective of the game, I think those, uh, serve one well, whether you're trying to run a museum or whether it's life skills or raising, raising kids. Hockey in particular has been, you know, you and I mentioned how we played in the backyard in our, you know, grade nine. Um, ironically, I'm still here. I am 65 in October. I still play hockey twice a week. And just this past weekend I was at Hockey Canada meetings at hockey can to semi-annual meeting in Monkton, New Brunswick. And I'm involved in hockey at, at that administrative level.

    John (33:46):

    I think that there's a lot of, uh, there's a lot you can take away from competitive sports and even the organizational aspect of it, that there's a responsibility to try ensure the, the game’s in good shape and sports is in good shape. Cuz I think it's an important part of our society. It's not without, its, it's not without its flaws. I mean, we all see that, uh, all too often, but for part of me, that's one of the reasons you are involved to address those and to make sure it is a, it is a, it is a positive en environment experience for every person who plays it or has anything to do with it.

    Craig (34:27):

    Many players and people who have involved in hockey have always said that hockey as a team sport is a great training ground for life that you learn to play as a team. You learn to have no fear going into the corners. And I'm just wondering what you learned from, from hockey yourself that you've been able to apply both as a, as a journalist, but also in your dealings with trying to keep the museum or, or building a new future for the museum.

    John (34:50):

    It's fun. It's, you know, it's funny when you talk about some of those things that you, whether you realize it or not, the impact that, uh, coaches have had on you, I think is, is very important. Whether it be people like Ian Garner, who was a coach of mine at, at Stratford Central, or baseball coaches along the way, Gary Shellenberger coached me for a number of years, became a member of Parliament and still a friend. And I think that hockey is a bit of a, or sport is in lots of ways or are some principles there that are, uh, that certainly help one, you know, competitiveness, uh, you know, fear failure, you know, the desire to win and be successful, but also done right. You know, as Canadians, we look at the end of the Stanley Cup playoff rounds, and despite how hard one plays, everybody shakes hands.

    John (35:42):

    You're, there's a level of respect. And I would like to think that, uh, I can, that we conduct ourselves that way at the museum that we are, we are maybe a little more competitive. We maybe are a little more, try a little harder. Uh, we certainly count on our teammates. Our teammates trust us in whether it be the festival or the Anne Frank House or, Stratford Tourism or Ballinran, or people we have relationships with, they trust us as a teammate. And I think that that's, I think that's pretty high cotton, that that's, that's a good yard stick to be measured by

    Craig (36:22):

    Do you think that's what makes Stratford unique as a, as a community? There is that team feeling. Uh, you know, we have the tourism, but there's many other, uh, aspects to the community that, uh, hold it together. And especially the last couple of years we've seen during Covid the ability to try to keep the community going.

    John (36:41):

    I often think as a historian, I think there's three key things, three key historical events that took place in Stratford's long history. You know, leading up, leading up to the 1950s where Stratford has been a bit of a boom bust place, but I think there's three key decisions. One was R. Thomas Orr’s um, campaign where he forced the referendum to stop the railway tracks from running alongside the Avon River. Um, he was head of the Chamber of Commerce or whatever it was called at that time. And, uh, lots of people never spoke to him again. That was fine. He made a decision based on his principles and his values. And because of that decision, I think citizenry and Stratford has always felt that they have a chance to, they have a chance to make a difference, that they have a chance to be heard.

    John (37:32):

    And there's not only that referendum along the Avon River, but to save the City Hall League with, with the seven women in Red White who forced the city to overturn a decision to save City Hall. So I think there's always been a feeling here that you can do something. There is a populist opportunity for well-intended, informed discussion from, from the public to influence outcomes. So I think that decision was critical. I think the way the city rebounded from our shops closing, we think about that sometimes in 1953, 40% of the homes in Stratford had somebody who worked at the shops. And yet, you know, yet the city rebounded from that, whether it was through luck or chance or, uh, God's graces or whatever. But the idea that the Stratford festival, a a three week summer festival that presents Shakespeare would somehow replace the jobs lost by the CNR shops is absolutely insane.

    John (38:35):

    But here we are with far more than a thousand people being employed in the tourism industry. And then the other thing I always think is that the general strike of 1923 here, Stratford for, you know, we're right in the middle of a, you know, agricultural area. It's a, it's certainly a rural place. Stratford has a long history, a hundred year history of trade unionism. And the CNR shops were, were unionized. The Stratford Beacon Herald where you and I worked, the International Typographic Union, there was the first union in Stratford, always think about Canadian fabricated products, a thousand employees there, 911 of them women. And that was the largest unionized Caw local in Canada, whether it was more women than men. And as a result of that, and I'm not a unionist, I'm not a person who's, uh, prolabor, but I'm also, uh, an historian. And I think that fact that Stratford's had a long history, a hundred year history of organized labor has contributed to a higher standard of living in this community.

    John (39:48):

    Much of the Stratford Festival is, is organized and unionized, very unusual for a cultural institution. The automotive industry which came here in the fifties, sixties and seventies, much of it unionized. And I think those are one of those subtle things that you don't, you don't appreciate until you're our age and you look back and what separates us from all these other communities our size, because as you mentioned, I do think we punch above our weight on a regular basis. And I think those sort of three, those sort of three historical incidents, the ability for the population to influence outcomes, trade unionism, and to, and to save the park system, which set a, set a canvas for the Stratford Festival.

    Craig (40:38):

    As a storyteller, you're able to have the platform now of the Stratford Perth Museum. But as we've seen recently, our newspapers are in demise, uh, and, uh, becoming challenging. What what are you seeing in the, the field of news and journalism in the future for how people will get their, their stories and their news?

    John (40:57):

    Well, it's obviously on a regular day, on a regular day, every time I listen to the radio, pick up a newspaper or watch television, I find it disconcerting e every day. And not, uh, you and I are, we're journalists by nature. I run a museum, but I'm certainly still thinking myself as a recovering journalist. And, uh, I'm very fearful of the what amounts to a lack of oversight. I just saw, there's another media publication that started here in Stratford and I saw they had on their Facebook page, said, Yes, we're really interested in reporting about, uh, your organization. Send us in, uh, send us in some information and we'll write you up. Uh, well, I'm not, I'm not sure that's journalism. And the other thing that concerns me, and it's a Trumpism, but the mainstream media, which I, which I'm not a conspiracy theorist at all, uh, but I often think the mainstream media as it's, as staff have been reduced as, uh, they've become more partisan.

    John (42:05):

    Quite often. I don't think the mainstream media is, does itself any favors either to stay as a, a pillar of democracy and to be a impartial informed source. I quite often listen to the lead on a, on a radio broadcaster look at the lead and, you know, a major national daily angle. I'm not sure that's the biggest part of this story, but it is, it gets it's click bait, it makes for makes for a better headline, particularly on the web. I worry about the impact it has on everything from the police services board or Stratford city Council to the publicity and, uh, insight. You get into the junior beat team that's here, or at Rotary Hockey or the museum or place like that. I, and in those gaps are filled by people that are, uh, for sure less informed and on occasion, far too often, uh, less valiant, less well-intended. And I'm concerned, I think I've committed to doing a couple books. And one of the books is the Death of the Small Town Newspaper and how it happened and it's impact and what, what small towns are gonna be like without one. And lots and lots don't have one already. Traffic's fortunate, but look at Barry or Guelph or places like that. It's, it's disconcerting.

    Craig (43:38):

    So from your platform at the Stratford Perth Museum, what do you see the future going only for the museum, but give us a sense of, as we're emerging from this last couple of years, where is our, our community going, do you think?

    John (43:54):

    I'm always worried, you know, I'm, and I think that's, that's part of the cynical nature of, of being a journalist. Uh, this community has a couple of really big historic files that are, that are on the corner of the desk, and one is the, the CNR shops, which are, uh, all the legal wrangling is, I think we at the, you know, we're, we're at two minutes to 12 on the doomsday clock for the legal wrangling that's taken place over that facility for 20 years. And ownership's about to become, you know, clear and final and et cetera. So it would appear, and then what the city does next, I think is every bit as important as what our Thomas or did with the referendum up and down the Avon River, or every bit as important as what Tom Patterson did when he came up with the idea of the Stratford Festival and politics being what they are in a small town.

    John (44:50):

    I, and I think this place is comparable to others, is that you, the person who leads this next 10 years will have to have a, uh, firm hand on the tiller, but that's combined with a couple of other less obvious, uh, attributes. And that would be a real sense of vision and the ability to drive ahead regardless of the barking dogs that line the parade route and the people throwing tomatoes and stones at the float. Um, and I'm, and that's a tough, that's a tough job this day and age with social media and petitions and online petitions and trolls and all that. And it, it, it is a, it is a very good person who can, will be able to lead this community to a result that it deserves and needs when it comes to that mass of 1 million square foot property.

    Craig (45:59):

    Well, John it’s been great chatting with you. We've known each other for a long time, and it's been great to catch up. And, uh, thanks for being on the podcast.

    John (46:08):

    I, thanks very much. I've never met a microphone I didn't like, always happy to tell stories. And Craig, our, our storytelling goes back to the newsroom at 1 0 8 Ontario when, uh, even before that. So I appreciate very much the opportunity.

    Craig (46:25):

    Okay, thanks again. Thank you.

    (46:27):

    You've been listening to the Stratford Slice with Craig Thompson. For more episodes, check out our website, thestratfordslice.com, and be sure to subscribe. The Stratford slice is produced by Ballinran Entertainment, Southwestern Ontario's number one digital media studio. If you have a great story to tell and want to be on the podcast, please reach out to us through our website, thestratfordslice.com.

  • Coming Soon!

  • (00:00:00):

    The following is a podcast from Be and Ran Entertainment.

    Craig Thompson (00:00:05):

    Hello, I'm Craig Thompson, and this is the Stratford Slice. How can you pack nine lives into one lifespan when you're not a cat? Kelly Walker has come close to achieving that, and he's my guest today on the Stratford slice for a time. My next guest was Everybody's everything. But the question remained, Who was he, Really? Kelly Walker may have asked himself this question a number of times throughout his eclectic life, teenager infatuated with the theater, piano prodigy, boy scout, alter boy, university student, Dominican brother, parish priest, therapist, speaker, cocktail lounge, player in demand, accompanist, and a renowned concert artist. And the list continues. Kelly Walker, welcome to the Stratford Slice.

    Kelly Walker (00:01:13):

    Thank you. What a treat to be here.

    Craig (00:01:15):

    Nine lives. I reference, I, I think I've counted 12 or 13 there, but

    Kelly (00:01:19):

    I'm only 80, so there's a little, little bit left to go.

    Craig (00:01:23):

    Uh, how did you have such an eclectic path, and you're very lucky in one way, but you seem to have experienced, uh, so many experiences, so many lives into your 80 years.

    Kelly (00:01:35):

    Well, I was born premature. I was born in Walkerton, Ontario, and, uh, there was no incubator. I weighed two pounds, and so they probably had, uh, to figure out how they were gonna help me survive. So they put me in the oven door, um, anointed me with olive oil because that's the only way they could wash me and fed me with an eye dropper. So I probably, as a little birdy, learned to survive. And, uh, I've always, I've, I've always had a mystical part. I can remember when I was a teenager saying, and this is when I was in school, saying, I think I'm going to be a saint. And I'm not sure I knew what a whore was, but there was, there was some kind of dance between those two things that I thought, there's, there's gotta be a dance between both of those elements of life.

    Kelly (00:02:32):

    And it's probably why in some ways, at an early age, I was attracted to religious stuff, and, and it's beyond the theater part of it, although Shauna McKenna and I were sitting in the theater one day, and I said, uh, or she said, First I don't go to church anymore. And I said, Shauna, nor nor do I, I I I, I find it not big enough. I, it's, it feels trite to me. And I said, um, this theater is for me, here is the real church. It gathers people together. It tells a story. It stirs up the imagination. It begins a process of transformation. We kind of become one and we leave changed, and that's what church should do. So I think as a little boy, there was something of all of that that, that I felt in, uh, the religious experience, whatever that was like.

    Craig (00:03:31):

    But music was a very early influence on your life, was it not? You'd told me the story about the organ in your living room

    Kelly (00:03:38):

    The day, the day I was born, my dad, who died when I was two, was a furniture salesman and played piano in a little town, Mildmay, outside of a suburb of Walkerton. And he brought a piano up to the apartment the day I was born. And, uh, as one article written about me, said, uh, music is the golden thread of my life. And, and it, it, it was, and always will be till the end.

    Craig (00:04:08):

    Were you always destined to be in music or theater? What was the path following high school for you?

    Kelly (00:04:14):

    Well, in high school, I went to a boys high school, and, uh, and I was afraid to let anybody know that I played the piano. So that was kind of hidden. Uh, in fact, I always, I, I said this yesterday at an, at a, an event I always felt as though I had to have a uniform on of some kind to validate me and, uh, to make me a valid human being, and especially, uh, to make me a valid male and, uh, one of a capital experience for me. Well, in grade 13, grade 13 was a captivating year. I, I decided I was going to finish my degree in piano, which I did, and I also did nothing but read plays. I don't know how I got into university, so I read plays, but my stepfather was a banker, and so I wasn't to become an actor or anything like that, But I went to the OIF Center and to see Gypsy and Ethel Memon, who was about a quarter of an inch tall from my cheap seat, um, blew me away.

    Kelly (00:05:27):

    And I wanted to be Ethel Merman. I wanted to be the guy who danced. I wanted to be, I wanted to be Gypsy. I wanted to be the whole darn thing. And I think it, it, it captured me the same year, uh, West Side Story happened on screen, and it had an amazing effect on me as well. However, my mother died three weeks later, I was destined to enter the Dominican order. Now, looking back on it, uh, that was in a sense theater too.

    Craig (00:06:03)

    Why did you say you were destined to enter the Dominican? Dominican?

    Kelly (00:06:06)

    Oh, I, because I had made arrangements, uh, before my mother died. She died suddenly of heart. And, um, I, but I had, I had planned to go to the Dominicans. I met, I, I had a, a, a pal, I'm gonna say he might have been called spiritual director, but he was more a pal, and he was a Jesuit.

    Kelly (00:06:26):

    And he said, Well, you don't want to be one of us because, uh, they'll try to break you and make you peel onions or something like that. And I met the Dominicans who had a monastic life. They had choreographed life. They chanted the office several hours a day. They wore interesting robes. They had great fraternity, and I loved it. And I entered in Quebec in 1962 in Saint-Hyacinthe. And then from there on, I, I led a charmed life in the order. They loved me and I loved them. So I was sent to study all, all over, and I was validated. And at the age of 31, or 30 or 31 coming back from doctoral studies at Notre Dame, I was elected prior and was prior for nine years, three terms. During that time, the group of us, there were 12 of us in this small monastery in Mississauga, were going, left her and left her.

    Kelly (00:07:26):

    And the church was going writer and writer. And, um, I was also being eaten up by people's needs. People craved somebody who would be compassionate and fun and understanding. And, uh, that wasn't always available in church land. And so not only I, but, uh, was eaten up, but, uh, so were the rest of the rest of us. Uh, and I became what I now call a boundaryless lover. I, if you need me, I'm there. And I was, and I, I cracked up at 40. I had a really severe burnout, and, uh, was told by the doctor that if I did public ministry again, I'd probably die. And so I, uh, I left and it was hard to leave because after 20 years, it was a strong, strong identity. And it wasn't that I hated any aspect of it. I loved it, but it wasn't what I could be anymore.

    Kelly (00:08:30):

    So the next phase was, uh, getting a job. And I didn't have any money. They don't pay you when in those days, they didn't pay you when you left, you just left kind of with shame and, uh, and disappointment. And so I went to a local bar to see if I could get a job as a waiter. And the owner said, Aren't you Father Kelly? And I said, No, Uh, I, he, Well, you look like him. I said, I've been told that. I said, Peter, I was, but I don't know who I am now, and I just need a job. So he said, Well, you played the piano at a baptism reception a few weeks ago, and you're good. Would you like to play on our piano bar? So that was my first job. And, and, uh, it went on from there. Every Friday night at the bar became like a concert hall, and people would come, but they'd stop and just listen. So, uh, and then it was time to, uh, to do the next phase.

    Craig (00:09:26):

    So was the burnout and the departure from the Dominicans the result of you not being able to say no, when somebody reached out to you for help, what was the actual, There was a lot of demands on your, on your, on

    Kelly (00:09:40):

    Your resource that that was certainly a big part of it. Um, because physically and emotionally, I broke down. But undergirding, that was the deep question of the validity of ministry for me. Um, and it hadn't come to light yet in my big consciousness about sexuality, because I was unable to, I mean, I've probably been gay since I was forever, but, uh, we didn't have language for it, and we didn't talk about it. And, uh, and so that was a, a development farther on. Um, I even during that time, married a woman for seven years, which was a wonderful experience, but it wasn't the right experience. And I feel now, uh, that it was another costume I put on. And it wasn't until I came out publicly. She's an Anglican priest, and I came out publicly in the congregation, and the people were absolutely wonderful. And the Anglican Church was wonderful. Um, but then I had to learn to grow up in a new way, and it took me, well, I remember when I got married, we said, Probably it'll take, I thought I said, Well, it'll probably take one or two years for me to deal with my new identity. It probably took 10.

    Craig (00:11:08):

    Where was society at at that time when you decided to come out? Uh, what year are we talking?

    Kelly (00:11:14):

    1994. So it was in the common lingo. And, uh, we had public meetings at the church congregation and like four public meetings. And one woman came up to me and I said, So nice to see you, and I'm so thrilled that you brought your teenagers here. And she said, Well, Kelly, she said, It's, I, she said, I've never experienced integrity in my life, and to think that I'd find it in a church blows me away. So I want my kids to know that. So that was the beginning. And then the next year I connected with Ray Harson, who's my partner, has been for 27 years now. Um, and we had one date, and we've been together ever since, since 1995. And so there was something, it was as though I don't need a costume anymore. I don't need anything other than me to identify me.

    Kelly (00:12:14):

    And, uh, and you know, it's been wonderful. I'm 80 now, and 80 is an awful lot better than 40. And, uh, the music career, Mary O'Hara, after I played the piano for a, for a while in the bar, maybe a year or so, I had a phone call from the uk and Mary O'Hara, who was the premier Irish singer in the world at the time, uh, had heard me sing at, during a sermon in Halifax, uh, the year before. And she said, I hear you're out, Would you tour with me? So that was the beginning of my music career.

    Craig (00:12:54):

    So your Dominican career ended and your international music career, uh, took off.

    Kelly (00:13:00):

    It did. <laugh> it did, and it's still going. I sang yesterday at, at a, a gay pride event here in Stratford, and there were probably, well, I think at least a thousand people marching in what was a very dignified and worthy, I, I'm, I'm, it was a parade, but it's like a procession from the new Tom Patterson Theater over to the art Gallery, where a group of us performs, uh, some, some of the gang from, uh, the show Chicago. And then I was asked to do, uh, a last song, which was Barry's Going to Prom about a, a middle-aged man being invited by a young lesbian to go to the prom, and he'd never been to a prom. And so the young music director said, Every time I hear that song, I think of you, would you learn it? So I learned it, and, uh, he had a band for me, and we ended the, uh, the concert with that yesterday. And I thought, Yes, fabulous. I thank God it was sort of like another turning point, um, because, uh, if you're not alive at 80, you're never gonna get there, <laugh>.

    Craig (00:14:14):

    Well, I've heard you sing many times, and I think there are some parallels. You've also written in several, uh, confessional or self-help books. And I think there's a parallel, you alluded to it earlier about performing, but you are a Dominican priest where you're giving people advice, uh, you know, on spirituality. Your songs, uh, are not pop standards. They're tied to your own personal beliefs and spirituality, and your books are the same. So tell me that connection between the Dominican teachings and your own sort of upbringing for 20 or so years, and how you, um, adapted that for the other methods of performance, so to speak.

    Kelly (00:14:55):

    Thank you. The, the, the Dominican order is called, it's official title is the Order of Preachers. So after your name, my religious name was Frere Jean Christoff, So I was Jean Christoff Walker, o p, Order of the Order of Preachers. And I remember the, the night before I made my final vows in the order I had, uh, it was a vision. It, it wasn't, it wasn't a dream, it was a concrete vision. And I, I was making my vows to stay as a Dominican for life. And, uh, in this vision, I was in a huge room. There were big windows at the end, a huge grand piano water coming up against the window and the rocks. And I, um, all of a sudden experienced that the image was going farther and farther and farther, and it kind of disappeared. And I went to one of the old monks, and I said, uh, and he was in his eighties.

    Kelly (00:15:58):

    I said, Uh, when were you sure you should be a Dominican? And he said, Well, probably by the time I was about 80. So I thought, Okay, so I, I, I said, I think it means I'm not supposed to be here. And he said, Oh, and it's probably just a temptation. So I put it aside. Um, but that always stayed with me. That image stayed with me. And I, uh, and I can remember sitting in the church the day of my final vows saying, I don't know whether I'll be buried in this white woo inhabit, um, but I have, I'm making a commitment to be faithful to proclamation of word. And so there was something really important that went on there where I dedicated myself to saying, Okay, I'm gonna spend the rest of my life, however it unfolds. Um, proclaiming liberating, being part of a movement for change, and, uh, being faithful to that.

    Kelly (00:17:01):

    And I can say that I've done that. I've, I've, uh, I do it, I, I, I did it effectively with, in preaching, I was a good preacher, but my first language is music. And I think that's been an important thing. And how, how important to be in this city where the major proclamation that goes on is, Well, people come together, they're transformed, as I said before, but they also witness in the stories that are told, uh, breakdowns, breakthrough, where all of those things are legitimized. And that's what I felt was missing in Churchland, is that breakdowns weren't legitimized. They were forgiven, but breakdowns are probably the most important human element we have for becoming who we might be.

    Craig (00:17:59):

    So where did your breakdown take place?

    Kelly (00:18:01):

    My breakdown took place, I was driving up the Don Valley Expressway, uh, in 1981, September the 26th, I was preaching to some old nuns in Peterborough. And, um, I had been asked by the bishop of St. Catherine's to go down there and do something. Actually, I, he had his priests in Buffalo, and he wanted me to talk to them. So I did that, got permission from the old nuns to have a morning off. So I drove down to Buffalo, spoke to the priests, drove back up to Peterborough on, on the way up the Don Valley expressway. I banged on the steering wheel, put on the brakes, and I screamed out, I can't stand all this adulation with no intimacy. And the intimacy I was talking about wasn’t intimacy with somebody. It was intimacy with Kelly. Somehow in the process of helping everybody, I, I disappeared.

    Kelly (00:19:05):

    And so my first book is called Loss of Soul, and I understand soul is that ultimate energy that holds all of our energies together. And what happened to me and happens to us in burnout, is we begin to disintegrate. And so I little by little began to disintegrate, and, uh, there was a shell of me left, but I had lost my soul. It's, it's interesting that in religion one could lose one soul, where, where he is, where it's, it's proclaimed that that's where you're supposed to go to find it. Uh, it, it didn't work for me.

    Craig (00:19:45):

    Do you think the trauma of losing your father at such a, a young age where you probably didn't even know him, and then losing your mother, uh, from a heart attack, did that push you into the, uh, Dominican or the religious path because you also had a love of music? Why not pursue a musical career right from the start?

    Kelly (00:20:03):

    Well, when your stepfather's a banker, he doesn't legitimize art <laugh> because there's no security in that. Also, probably if I had, um, gone into theater, which I would've, I think done well in, um, at the age of 20, I probably, like most of my gay generation mates would be dead. So I think somehow I was preserved. I might have been preserved for this time, who knows

    Craig (00:20:34):

    How did your banker stepfather react to, Oh, you're not gonna go into theater, but you're gonna go in the Dominican order? What was, Well, he didn't, he must have wanted you to become a banker like him.

    Kelly (00:20:43):

    He, well, he knew better because <laugh>, that wasn't in, I did not, I was no good at math. Um, uh, he was okay. He didn't like the fact that I was going to Quebec, although we're half Alsatian, but they were German speaking more than French speaking. So he didn't like the fact that I was going to Quebec. Also, he thought that Dominicans looked like nuns. They wore the hoods. And why would you want to do that? Anyway, he had, uh, a wonderful conversion to me and to the order. He became very, uh, proud of me and proud. Uh, Dominicans aren't just your local slouches, you know, they, they, um, we had at least 10 years of postgraduate studies before we were let out onto the, into the world. And, uh, we, I lived with preeminent, exciting, visionary men who were, were grand. I never had an order.

    Kelly (00:21:44):

    I, I never had an issue with the order. I had an issue with the church, but not with the order. The order was fabulous and, and still is, and, and probably I still am one on one level. Um, my, my, I I'm still a contemplative in many ways. Uh, I have a belief in, I don't have a belief in the stuff of religion. Uh, Meister Eckhart, who was also a Dominican, said, God, deliver me from God. So all of the clap trap of religion doesn't interest me at all anymore. But the guts of it does, of that there be, that there is some element of, of unity in the universe that is precious and that we are all part of, um, is important to me also, because I'm going to die in, in, you know, in the not too distant future. I've only got 20 or 30 years left, maybe. Uh, but I, I also have an understanding in my gut that somehow I become part of the integrated whole. And, um, so that's, that's the next adventure for me. I, and I hope there's music there, or I might wanna <laugh> go to another place. <laugh>

    Craig (00:23:06):

    Speaking of music, that's how you and I met, Uh, we met through the Stratford Symphony. You and Ray are, are avid supporters of the Stratford Symphony Orchestra, which is an amazing orchestra for, um, uh, uh, a small town like Stratford. But I want to ask you about music, because I've seen you perform many times. Your songs are almost like therapy when you listen to the songs. Uh, let's borrow a little trick from Desert Island Discs. And if you were, uh, to depart, uh, this Mortal Coil or go off to a desert island, what would be your three songs, uh, that you'd bring with you and why?

    Kelly (00:23:42):

    Three of my songs?

    Craig (00:23:45):

    Three songs that are, are songs that you often play.

    Kelly (00:23:50):

    Well, there's one that, uh, my first, my first songs that I wrote in my new life were also, at the time that I was in the new, I'm gonna say first right relationships. I, I, I, I have to say too, that I never had wrong relationships. My relationship with my former wife was not wrong. It just wasn't where I needed to be. But the first, the first song, Ray and I had a bit of a, a struggle one time. He had been out for several years, and he wanted to make, if he was gonna have another relationship, it had to be a good one. And so, and yet I was hot to trot. So I, I was anxious to have a relationship. He was distrustful at first. And so after one, uh, one evening when we spent together, I had to go back to my condo downtown Toronto, and he was in Parkdale.

    Kelly (00:24:56):

    And so I left his place angry because I, he, he wasn't ready to make a commitment, and I, I needed something to give me some identity at that point. And so I walked from Parkdale, for those of you who know Toronto, down to St. Lawrence Market, where I lived at the Mar at Market Square. And, um, I left there saying, Well, I guess that's the end of that. I'll never see him again. But by the time I got to my condo, I sat at the piano, and this song came out, uh, that said, perhaps it's called, perhaps, perhaps it was a moment, perhaps it was a, Anyway, it lasted for a springtime. Where did that come from? That never seems to end. I I, it perhaps now strangers can be friends. And, and it was this great manifestation out of a breakdown, I thought, that said, all of a sudden, This is it, kid. You know, this is going to be an important relationship. And, uh, and it has been, I mean, it's, it's fundamental to me. So that that song perhaps,

    Craig (00:26:04):

    Um, you're gonna be performing in a, in a, in a few weeks, or perhaps it just happened, uh, when this goes to air, but you're accompanying the poet, uh, David Stones at a event here at Revival House. What is that sort of marriage, uh, between spoken word and music?

    Kelly (00:26:21):

    Well, that, you know, it's, it's interesting. David is a very, uh, accomplished poet. And, uh, unlike most poets, he's a performance poet. So most poets are kinda laid back and quiet, and he's not. And anyway, he had a musical accompaniment that he had in his pretty successful concerts that he was doing. And one time I helped him and Jeanie, his wife, find a, a grand piano. And while we were, I guess after Post Covid, the first time we got together, I was at their home playing piano, and, and it, it just felt right that we should musically get engaged. And so we tried it, and it's really been magic. And, uh, so what, what I do is I undergird his poetry with sounds with, uh, sometimes a melody that's known. Uh, he's got one about that that has cigarette in it, so smoke gets in your eyes.

    Kelly (00:27:28):

    But I just kind of expand on that and stretch it. And then I, sometimes at the end of a poem, I will go into an improv. But we've created a show that has, uh, that element. Um, but then I do my songs, and I have a young gal who I, I've known since she was a teenager, she used to study with Mark Dubois in, uh, in the Hockley Valley. Her name is Brianne Dietrich. And, uh, she's from Mildmay, Ontario, where i, I was born, but she did music studies at Western and then musical theater, uh, degree in Boston. And, uh, she's, she's back doing some stuff now, and she's 29, so it's kind of nice to have a flower between two old thorns. But she has been, um, a great addition too. So we're, we're launching this little concert. It's the second time we've done it.

    Kelly (00:28:22):

    And then we're, we've been, uh, invited to do it at the Arts and Letters Club in Toronto. And who knows, I mean, I'm 80 and, uh, David’s in his seventies and Brian's 29. I, I think, I think maybe we've got a good thing going and, uh, anyway, we're gonna try it here. And, and the money we're making from this is going to help settle refugees. So it's, um, it's kind of ministry <laugh> in a way, in, in a new way. And I think, uh, one of the things that poetry does is it explores imagination and it does it through Word. And what I do in music, whether it's in a concert or sitting at home, which I do every night after, after dinner, I go to the piano and, uh, improvise. And, uh, it sort of captures the sounds of the universe and what's going on in the world and what's going on in me, and, uh, manifests it. I have a friend who talks about manifesting everything. Well, that's a manifestation.

    (00:29:28):

    You're listening to the Stratford Slice with Craig Thompson. Check out our website, thestratfordslice.com, and be sure to subscribe. And now, back to the show,

    Craig (00:29:41):

    We were talking earlier about what's going on in the world right now. We've emerged off this wild roller coaster ride for the last couple of years, and now we're coming off the ride, and it seems to be we're getting off at a different station than we got on. What are you seeing in your discussions with people and, and also in your own creativity? Are we, is there a lot of anxiety that you're trying to address at the moment right now with your creative output?

    Kelly (00:30:10):

    Yeah, there's, uh, I think more anxiety right now than I've ever experienced in, in my 80 years. Um, I came to life, into life just after the, or the end of the second World War, and there was a regrouping there, um, and reimagining, um, I, I think right now the world has in a sense fallen apart, but it maybe is falling apart, so it can come together. Like we, we, we've, we've, you and I have lived through a civilization shift, um, a a major paradigm shift in the world from when we were born until now. And I see the young kids who are, have lived through covid and have learned to do everything virtually and for whom an iPad is like an old slate that we had, maybe, or, or, uh, the little scribblers that we had, that we worked on. Um, so there's a, a paradigm shift, uh, that, that we can access anything right away, that we can be in touch with anybody we want right away.

    Kelly (00:31:34):

    Um, we've lost, we've lost a sense of soul. And I think what's going on right now is that somehow, um, the world is, has, is in the process of losing an identity and in a sense, losing soul. And I think it's, it's going to be a process of breakdown. It's happening now almost everywhere. I mean, Trump helped, helped that happen in the United States, but that he wasn't just, I mean, he was a, an insider of what was already going on. Um, I think we're saner here because of our, of our government background and the way we, the way we function, and we're a, we're a pretty sane people in, in a lot of ways, but Covid has affected us. It's, it's kind of made us doubt our being. And, uh, and, and so that's, and we're gonna have to crash before we recover, I think.

    Kelly (00:32:40):

    But, and, uh, so a few things are really important. Uh, and I'm one of the revolutions I think that's important that people haven't dealt with much is, is the sexual revolution, uh, because we've, all of a sudden we're discovering that there isn't just straight and gay, and all of a sudden we are discovering that even though those have kind of been validated, even heterosexuality hasn't really been validated because it's never been explored as anything other than just sex. Whereas it's, it's being, and a way of being and a manifestation of being as is gay, which isn't just one thing either. So there's this huge spectrum of how human beings behave, um, in that intimate inner energy that we have, that we've called sexuality. And that's that. And that's more than just having sex, that's about a way of being. And so there's, that's one revolution that's going on.

    Kelly (00:33:50):

    The other revolution that's going on, I think is our interconnectedness, Uh, that is, uh, we're still, we're still tribal, and I think it's going to be important in the next while that we learn to go beyond tribal. Now, that might take a couple generations because we're still, and now we've got Russia, uh, and China kind of getting married, possibly on the side. And then there's maybe the rest of us, or some of the others of us, but we're still, we still function as tribes. Um, and, and we've got, we've, we've got to find out how we can go beyond that. Um, so that's a huge thing. We're also afraid of differences and, uh, differences in people, differences in language. We have that going on in Quebec right now. Uh, but we've got differences in the way we dress, differences in the way we express things.

    Kelly (00:34:54):

    Um, it's going to take a while before we can come to realize that there'll always be differences, but the differences aren't a negative. They can be a great plus in, in, in creating a much more interesting fabric, uh, than just something that's the same. Um, I, I think with the Americanization of the world, uh, there was, um, a breakdown in some of those essentials because everybody, I mean, you used to go to Europe and you'd say, Well, people dress like Europeans. Now you go to Europe and people dress like they're from California and everybody dresses anyway. There's a there's a kind of a uniform, uh, that we all wear. And, uh, so there, there's, that's a huge thing. And then I guess the, the, the source of it all, the, the source of, this sounds like the old preacher coming up, but, uh, filthy lucre, <laugh> money, money is, uh, is, is the major area of, let the preacher arrive,

    Kelly (00:36:11):

    It's the, it's the major area of sin because there's imbalance, people hoard, um, nations hoard. There's not sharing, um, there's not caring. And, uh, and so the world is ruled by five or six or 10 or 50 men. So that, and, and so it's, it's, and, and, and, and nobody quite knows where the source of power is. So money and power, uh, are, are controlling. And until we come to some kind, and we might have to, we might have to all be poor again, to, to, to find out who in the world we as humans are going to be. And if, uh, if this war gets bigger than it is, uh, that could happen sooner than, than we expect. Well,

    Craig (00:37:03):

    There's also the parallel track of the climate, uh, not just money and power, but the climate is, has its own agenda.

    Kelly (00:37:10):

    Yeah. Climate's had its own agenda, and a lot of it is, is also dependent or has emerged as an issue because of money and power. And, and I say religion, religion has also been, uh, and, and, and religion could be a really important and interesting source of, of, uh, readjustment for all of that, but it hasn't got there. And until they sell up, sell their rings and gold and, and art treasures, uh, there's never gonna be balance in the world.

    Craig (00:37:48):

    So if you were to have another book in you, uh, perhaps you do, perhaps you don't, but what would you call a book? Hmm.

    Kelly (00:37:58):

    Soul Revisited?

    Craig (00:38:01):

    Yeah. Would it be a hopeful book or a realistic book?

    Kelly (00:38:06):

    Um, both. Uh, I talk, I talk in my, I'm gonna say my last book because I books are, we don't do books anymore in the way that we did. That's probably the last book I'll ever write. And maybe, maybe this is what I'll do more of if I find a venue for it. Um, I, I talk about, uh, Teilhard de Chardin, who was a Jesuit, um, talked about the Noah fear that we're, we're going beyond something that we had into a new phase where love and kindness and manifestation of, of the fullness of humanity comes to light. And, you know, we've gone from the industrial age to the psychological age, and now, and maybe this is part of the breakdown that's going on to lead us to what he would call the Noah’s fear, where where we, we, we come into a, a period of tranquility and a period of peace and a period of, of, um, true, true community. And, uh, and, and that might be coming, uh, but it's not, It can't come until we face the breakdowns that we're going through right now. And, uh, and maybe it's utopia, I,

    Craig (00:39:34):

    So if that's your, your last book and you're gonna resort to music, what song in your repertoire do you think would reflect, uh, the, the best advice that help people, uh, through the transition that we're all experiencing right now?

    Kelly (00:39:51):

    Actually, I just thought of three of them, <laugh>, but one of them, uh, I don't know if you remember the, the Berrigan Brothers. One was a Jesuit, and the other one was a member of an order called Josephites. And Philip left his order and married a woman and, uh, had children. And, and then I think they're both dead. Um, but they were, uh, social justice advocates in the sixties, and they would, they were part of a group of radical US Americans who, uh, would do things like pour blood on bombshells, where they were making bombs. And he, they would go and break through and do all sorts of radical stuff. And at one, I was, I, I had Philip come up to, from, I think it was living in Philadelphia, and, uh, came up to speak to a class I was teaching at York University.

    Kelly (00:40:40):

    And he spoke about the White Rose movement, which was, uh, an anti-Nazi movement, uh, during the war. And, and, uh, they, the symbol of this movement of peace was giving out white roses. And so I, I thought, well, I, I, I'm not inclined by virtue of my being to do that kind of radical social justice stuff, but I can write a song. And so I wrote a song called You Are the Rose, You are the Flower, the Blooms for the World. You're the hope of the nations. You are the treasurer, You're the Pearl. And so, um, that, that was, that was an, an important song. Um, and, and then a few years ago, I wrote a song called, uh, uh, Him to Mother Earth. Um, and that's another interesting one. You know, I went to a boy school where the only morality we were instructed in was sexual morality as though the only place you could have morality in your life was below your belly button.

    Kelly (00:41:46):

    Um, and we were never, uh, in my generation, educated to deal with social issues, uh, uh, even though the Catholic Church at that time had some fabulous documents about that stuff, but it never reached the common consciousness. So sexuality was the big bad boogeyman in, in the place. Um, and so I, I think that there's a transformational thing that goes on. And, you know, I, I worked with Skip Procop. Skip was the head of Lighthouse and fabulous friend, and he would come over to the monastery and visit us, and, and we became great buddies, and we wrote music together. And, and, and, uh, and, and then he got religion at one point, and he <laugh>, he, he got Jesus and Obscenities kind of mixed up all in the same thing. And I said, same sentence. And I said to him, Skip, why don't you write just good, really good deep music, rather than writing the Christian stuff?

    Kelly (00:42:50):

    They think they're saved, but my kind don't. So why don't you write for us? And, uh, and you know, I, I think there are transformational things that go on in speeches, in political movements and so forth, but I think there's a, a stronger yet kind of transformational energy that comes through music, through songs, and through words and songs, and also rhythms, and also, uh, songs can bring people together. I, you and I grew up in a generation where after dinner, our, our relatives went to the, the living room and played the piano and had sing songs. And, and I can remember my aunts and uncles, but a little bit of Rye helped in those days. But they, uh, they sang beautiful songs and they sang wartime songs. But I saw my family united around that piano more than they do around a cribbage board or around playing peanut or something like that.

    Kelly (00:43:54):

    And, and, and I think the same holds true for the world, I think, uh, ah, we've got Chicago going on right now. I mean, it's a dirty, nasty, sinful, dreadful, wonderful show that's that's going on right here. But people are going to leave that with songs, and they're gonna be united, and there's gon, they're gonna be melodies, and they're gonna be transformed in that. Um, like Rocky, a few years ago, we, we had Rocky Horror Show. Uh, people left there transformed. People came to see that, who would never go to see Shakespeare. And people went to see that who, who yearned for the kind of transformation that set that music and fun.

    Craig (00:44:38):

    Well, shall we listen to one of your songs now? Shall we play You Are The Rose?

    Kelly (00:44:42):

    Sure. Thank you.

    Kelly (singing) (00:44:55):

    You are the rose. You are the flower that blooms for the world. You are the hope of the nations, you’re the treasure, you’re the pearl.

    You are the blossom, which buds on the tree. Thorns surround you to keep you free, free to blossom and free to grow. But to assure that, we must say no, no to the darkness that leads to despair, no to the tyrants who let on they care, No to the powers that blind us to life, No to the Princes who lead us to strife.

    You are the rose. You are the flower that blooms for the world. You are the hope of the nations, you’re the treasure, you’re the pearl.

    You are a woman, you are a man. You are a little one, grow if you can. You are a wonder, you are a dream, child of the universe, born to be free.

    Free from Hunger, free for Love, free to work under one sun above. Free to gather with friends, you and me. Born for tomorrow, born to be free.

    You are the rose. You are the flower that blooms for the world. You are the hope of the nations, you’re the treasure, you’re the pearl. You’re the treasure, you’re the pearl.

    Craig (00:48:57):

    My guest here on the Stratford slice is Kelly Walker. We just listened to You Are The Rose. We were talking before the song about Stratford, uh, you and Ray have chosen to move to Stratford, your husband, Ray, how welcoming would you say, how, what, what is the pulse of Stratford and how welcoming has it been for people who have, uh, uh, we talked about diversity and, uh, uh, bipoc and, uh, gay and lesbian couples. What has Stratford been, uh, for you in terms of its attitude and welcoming, uh, feeling?

    Kelly (00:49:31):

    I feel that at last I've come home. Um, our, our group of friends are, I mean, we've got lots of friends in town, but there are writers, there are political writers, there are professors, there are singers, dancers, There are people who work in factories. This has been amazing. And, um, you know, when we first moved here, we moved on to a wonderful street and, and, and got to have wonderful neighbors, which we've always had here. But we decided rather than waiting for them to invite us or say hello, little by little, we'd invite them in. And so we had, uh, we had a first neighborhood dinner when we first got there, and it, and we've been here since 2006 now. And, and so that really cemented us, in a sense, into a small community. But that's just expanded. I've never felt unwelcome or I've more than that, I've always felt entirely welcomed in, in this city.

    Kelly (00:50:40):

    I also have had fun. Uh, Donna Fior asked me a couple years ago if I would help her with, uh, the Sound of Music, because, uh, she needed somebody to teach the dancing girls how to be nuns. And so I spent a part of a day with, uh, with the dancing girls telling them how to be nuns. They, each nun got a story, and they had why they entered the convent and everything like that. Maria was Jewish, and so she couldn't make the sign of the cross, right? And the Mother Abess was Mennonite, so she didn't know what, what to do. So that was really fun. And then a few weeks ago, uh, Antoni Cimolino texted me and said, Could you come and spend part of a day? Uh, the Archbishop is a black kid with a Pentecostal background who grew up in Toronto, and he's gotta be the archbishop, but could you help, Could you help him? So I spent a morning with Peter Bailey, and he's a fabulous archbishop right now. And then I was asked if I would work with the Royal family, because King Edward had to have the last sacraments. So I spent, I spent the morning working with the whole royal family and the entourage, and did we ever have fun? But now they know a little bit about Catholic tradition. And, uh, I mean, if that doesn't make me feel like I've lived my life fully and excitedly, I don't know what would,

    Craig (00:52:08):

    We've talked a lot in this chat about transitions, transitions in the different, uh, chapters of your life, um, transitions that you anticipate or we all anticipate happening in the world. Let's talk about the transitions, uh, taking place in Stratford. Do you see Stratford at a, at a crossroads in terms of what kind of town and and community, uh, we want to be, especially after this last two years of, uh, of Covid and, uh, a lot of change?

    Kelly (00:52:39):

    Well, talking to some of the actors in the community, here's something I have heard. They have never felt an audience as eager to be as they have. We went to the opening of Hamlet the other night, which is a dynamite production with a black woman playing Hamlet. Um, I, I mean, it's, it's, it's so imaginative as our, all of the productions this year here. But what really got me, I, the, the production was as good as you can get, but the audience was as good as you can get. And what thrilled me about the, the, the audience was, it just wasn't old gray haired guys like me, but they were an awful lot of young people who had come to that production. And, uh, they hooped it up and they loved it. They ate it up. And, uh, I have never experienced such applause and joy, um, from an audience as I did then.

    Kelly (00:53:49):

    I think the city also is just eager to recover itself, but it's gonna recover itself in new ways. We've, the, the pandemic made us more interior, I think, because we were forced to stay inside all the time, but also to stay inside ourselves. And I think that there's a, I I'm feeling a sincerity, um, in restaurants, in, uh, the, the theater in going into somebody's house. Um, I'm, I'm on the street people, if you walk around the, the river that people call a lake here, um, people say hello. If you're walking down the street, people greet each other. Um, and, and I see people who've come from, from the big city, and, uh, I think they're astounded that people say hello to each other. And I, I think there's a new, it's, I, I don't know whether the churches will ever fill up again, but I think that they, they could, and I think the energy that's been created is happening. I think you can breathe it in the city right now.

    Craig (00:55:04):

    How do we deal with the big city problems that are coming this way and the angst that no one has escaped? I'm talking about mental health, homelessness, affordability, uh, the challenges, uh, that every community is facing. We've got the tourism industry, which is happy and bright, and we hope it'll continue, but it's getting more challenging for others.

    Kelly (00:55:26):

    Yeah, I think, I think there is a huge case of mental distress, um, in, in, in our society and here in town too. I think there's a, there is a level of fear or hesitation that that goes on in everybody. Um, but also in all sorts of things like shopping, um, going out, uh, daring to go to a restaurant, daring to go to a movie. And we, we, we saw West Side Story a few weeks ago in, uh, Waterloo, and we were the only two people in the theater on a Tuesday afternoon. Um, so there is that hesitancy, and it's gonna take, it's gonna take some time. Uh, I had Covid for a week. Uh, I didn't have it bad. I, I got my fourth shot on a Saturday. The next day I got Covid. And so I was, I, I was forced to stay home and stay in the guest area of our home. And, uh, I had personal service from Ray.

    Kelly (00:56:37):

    I, I, it was really nice to have meals delivered to my room. But, uh, but, but there's, there's an anxiety that's around. Uh, but out of that anxiety, I think I, I, I think a, a major role in this community for the theater and the arts and also the, the churches and social services is, is I think to give people a hope that they can trust again, are are leading people into trust. Um, I watch people shop and, and, uh, people don't have as much money, but there are ways of shopping. Uh, and the local here in town is helping people who might be most distressed with that, um, learn how to shop, to cook, to plant and, and grow their own things, or reassess what we have. Um, we have thrift thrift stores. I, I, I lost a lot of weight and my, uh, my new best friend became, uh, Goodwill and Value Village.

    Kelly (00:57:51):

    I thought, I don't have to go to Holt Renfrew anymore. I can go, I can go to those places and I can look mighty fine, uh, for 10 bucks. And on Tuesdays there's 30% off. And, and you can go to the, go to the grocery store and buy things that aren't as perfect. And there are, there are wagons there where you can get things that are 50% off and 40% off, and you can learn to cook in new ways and learn to be in new ways. And, and I think that's happening. Um, and that's gonna take time. Transformational things always take time. I always used to say, if you go away for a weekend retreat and come back, really, uh, transformed, don't trust it. Because weekend retreats don't, they, they might give you, they might sow a seed in you that will lead to transformation, but transformation takes a long time.

    Kelly (00:58:44):

    And in our society too, we're going to have to, And here in town we're going, there are, there are at least a hundred homeless people in town that we don't know about, but they're, they're there. And we have social agencies attempting to look after people in distress. Uh, we have, we have, uh, uh, an Anglican church in town has a soup kitchen. Uh, and, and people can come in and have a shower. There, there, there, there's a new consciousness, I think. And we have to find ways of housing that make housing a reality for people that make it affordable for them. Um, but I think that's, that's coming into the common consciousness that, that that's not just something the government has to do, but it's something now we have to do.

    Craig (00:59:33):

    So with your background in the, in the priesthood, your, uh, role as an author, although you say you've written your last book, <laugh> and your music, and now this wonderful conversation we're having, what is your contribution, do you think, in this next, uh, uh, chapter, so to speak, in, in, in your, in your life?

    Kelly (00:59:56):

    It's interesting. Uh, Claire Latier, who is a, an actor in the company who's now gone into more spiritual deep stuff, uh, has moved, moved to France, and she, she writes back and forth, but I spent a, a session with her, uh, a year or so ago talking about what we want to do in the next period of time. And I wrote down, I wrote down a few things. It's too bad I don't have those in front of me, but one of them was that I want to become a gracious old and interesting and exciting man. I don't want to become a dried up old prune. So that's, that's, I, I want to look good. I want to feel good. I want to act good. I want to be generous. I want to be compassionate, and I want to be fun as, as the future goes on.

    Kelly (01:00:49):

    I, I think I, how, how am I gonna contribute? I, I don't know. I'm, I don't have a lot of money, so I, I can't do that. Um, but I can make money for people. I can do things that bring money in. I've done that. I was artistic director of Loft Community Services, big Christmas concert in Toronto for 15 years, and we'd often bring in a hundred thousand dollars in the night. So I can facilitate that because one of my gifts, I think, is that I know everybody, so I can connect people to people, and that's something I can do in, in my old age. Uh, I can also, um, I have a friend who, who started a, a anti, uh, post-cancer thing for women, I think it was called, Look, look good, feel better, or something like that. And, uh, and, and I think I can, I think I can do that by trying to look exciting, age appropriate. But, um, but alive, I mean, I got dressed up for this show, and I, I, I, I could have had three or four dates on the way here today, just,

    Craig (01:01:59):

    Well, if it's, if it's goodwill, you look great.

    Kelly (01:02:02):

    There it goes. Thank you, <laugh>. You're in the will now, <laugh>. But, but you know, just to give people joy, welcome people into our home hospitality, we always say, if the, if the back gate is open, please come by. Um, and so that, so things like that, um, they're little, but they're huge.

    Craig (01:02:21):

    Well, it's been great to having you as a guest, Kelly Walker on the Stratford Slice. I think we're gonna end off on some music, hopefully some hopeful music. We'll, uh, we'll choose a track that is, uh, appropriate for our conversation today. But thank you so much. It's been great. We've had many chats before, but this has been our, uh, first uh, chat on a podcast. So thank you. Thank you

    (01:06:32):

    You've been listening to the Stratford Slice with Craig Thompson. For more episodes, check out our website, thestratfordslice.com, and be sure to subscribe. The Stratford slice is produced by Balinran Entertainment, Southwestern Ontario's number one digital media studio. If you have a great story to tell and want to be on the podcast, please reach out to us through our website, thestratfor slice.com.

  • Coming Soon!

  • (00:00):

    The following is a podcast from Ballinran Entertainment.

    Craig Thompson (00:05):

    Hello, it's Craig Thompson, and this is The Stratford Slice.

    Craig (00:18):

    When you see someone on a mobility scooter, how many of you rush to judgment? My guest today knows a thing or two about that, but he's also a veteran of the Canadian advertising industry and an extremely talented photographer today on the Stratford slice. Pleased to welcome into the studio today, Fred Gonder, who, uh, is a very talented photographer and, uh, a very experienced, retired executive and creative director from the advertising industry. Worked on many automotive campaigns. Fred, welcome to the Stratford Slice.

    Fred Gonder (00:56):

    Thank you, Craig. Glad to be here.

    Craig (00:58):

    One, uh, pick up on the mobility scooter. Mobility scooters have been around since 1950s, on and off over the last few decades, but really they've come into, uh, popularity with the advent of, of better batteries and more durable and more rugged, uh, design. And it's really only in the last maybe 20 or 30 years they've, uh, come into their own. Now you ride a mobility scooter. Uh, tell us how that has changed your life, changed your world.

    Fred (01:30):

    Well, I'd lost my ability to walk about 13 years ago when I, uh, was, got out of drinking. I was an alcoholic and I have alcoholic neuropathy, and I, I couldn't drive a car, so I was stuck. If I didn't have a moldability scooter, I would be house bound. Uh, I have no way of getting around. I can't walk for any great distance, and it's been a godsend.

    Craig (01:59):

    Would you agree it's, it's often, uh, the cause or sometimes the cause of misconceptions or perceptions? There was one, uh, any instances where people rushed to judgment about what you were doing, and what is the guy taking pictures riding around on a scooter?

    Fred (02:14):

    I haven't anybody to confront me with that, but, uh, I'm sure people have a perception that I'm crippled or there's something really wrong with me that I, I, I can't have any other way of getting around, and that's not the case. I, I can walk perfectly. I have a little problem with balance, but aside from that, uh, the restriction is I just can't walk for any great distance or great length of time. And so this gives me great freedom to get around town.

    Craig (02:43):

    But someone did, uh, question what you were doing photographing at a certain spot and,

    Fred (02:48):

    Uh, yeah, <laugh> last summer, I was over by the lion's pool and I got, uh, I was taking pictures. I took two pictures of the kids. It was just a sunset. There weren't many people in the pool. And I left and I goes over around the Cenotaph and a cop pulled up and said, Someone had reported me taking pictures of children. And I said, Yeah, that was me. And I showed 'em the pictures and he looked at him, he said, I don't have a problem with that, and you can't even recognize the kids. That not a problem. And he said, Really, it's not even against the law, but someone reported it. So I have to, I have to make a, a cruise around, find out who it is, and confront them and, and find out what it's all about. And he had no problem with it. So yeah, it's, it happens. I don't know what, what the person was thinking. I don't know what was in their mind, but, uh, they reported me to the police just because I was taking photographs of the pool.

    Craig (03:46):

    So wasn't necessarily because you were in a scooter, you think, or do you think that had part of, part of

    Fred (03:51):

    Hard to, hard to tell Craig. I mean, the police didn't explain. They just said, Someone reported me photographing children in the pool. And, uh, I don't <laugh>, I dunno what the exception to to that is, but, uh, somewhat took exception to it. So.

    Craig (04:07):

    Well, you have quite a background in advertising. Can you tell us a bit about that? You worked for many years on Porsche and Audi and Volkswagen and jetted back and forth between Canada and Germany. Tell me what your, uh, role was in the advertising industry.

    Fred (04:23):

    I was the art director for TP O'Malley Creative Communications. Uh, I was a partner in the company and I was with Tom O'Malley for 40, almost 40 years. Uh, he had a heart attack towards the end, and, uh, after that decided that he had to slow down and get outta the business. So we decided to sell up. And, uh, I went off and worked freelance outta my house for 10 years and then, uh, had a bad back. Uh, that kept me housebound for about 10 days, uh, with sciatica, the type of thing where you couldn't walk, you had to crawl around, you couldn't stand. And that's probably what precipitated me coming to Stratford, was my sisters were having to bring me stuff frozen, things that I could just crawl downstairs, throw in the microwave, heat up and not have to stand around and prepare. And they said, Look, it, you know, if you're gonna sell a house, why don't you move to Stratford? And that way we don't have to worry about you in the future. So, uh, that's basically what got me to Stratford.

    Craig (05:27):

    So we're all familiar with the series, Mad Men, your career obviously is after that. But tell us about the ad industry and the rough and tumble world and the, you know, you'd have your meetings in a bar, I imagine. Tell me about the, the, the life as an ad executive in Toronto. This would be the 1970s and eighties.

    Fred (05:45):

    Yes, it was, uh, seventies, eighties, nineties. And, uh, don't remember where we were having too many meetings in bars, but, uh, and we weren't advertising per se. Like we weren't media advertising where we weren't doing TV or radio or television or as we were doing more of the, uh, point of purchase and promotional work for, Well, in, in this case, Volkswagen, uh, uh, we did Volkswagen Canada's work, their Audi, Porsche and, and Volkswagen, uh, catalogs for their car, catalogs for their dealer showrooms and showroom material, purple show material for the showrooms and that kind of thing. We had to, we, we did get to go to Europe to, to do ODI and to Volkswagen in Wallburg. And, uh, got to go to California and shoot some Audi shots down there and do some Volkswagen shots in New York. So, yeah, I got to, I got to get around the world a little bit.

    Craig (06:45):

    You were an art director, is that what your title was?

    Fred (06:48):

    I was just the art director. I wasn't doing photography then, but I was working with a lot of very, very talented photographers in Toronto. So I was able to question them, query them as to what that, why you're doing that? Why, why is this happening? Why is that happening? And that kind of thing. And so I, I picked up some knowledge from some very knowledgeable photographers, and that stuck with me. And when I got to Stratford, uh, I wasn't really into photography until I bought my first digital camera, which was just a small pocket camera. And then from there I moved up to, to more expensive and more elaborate cameras. But initially it just started out, uh, as a, as a hobby. And now it's become a bit of a way of life. Uh, I look forward to getting out as much as I can and taking photography around Stratford, and a lot of people seem to enjoy my photography.

    Craig (07:38):

    So it's been a, a way of you getting mobility in a way that, uh, just doesn't involve your scooter, but it involves your art

    Fred (07:46):

    In a way. Yeah. Uh, my, my art has progressed or my, my ability has progressed, I should say. Uh, I, I, everyone says I have a, an eye for photography, and I guess that's what makes my photography, uh, desirable or recognizable. Pleasurable. I don't know what the descriptive, where it might be, but, uh, a lot of people seem to enjoy it, and I enjoy doing it.

    Craig (08:19):

    We'll post some of your, uh, your photographs on, on our website, though, uh, when this, uh, podcast goes up. So we'd be happy to share those with, uh, our listeners.

    Fred (08:28):

    I appreciate that.

    Craig (08:29):

    What is your perception of Stratford as a, uh, a town where you can capture great images? What is it about Stratford that appeals to you from a visual point of view?

    Fred (08:42):

    Well, there's a lot of interest. There's a lot of colour over the summertime, especially, uh, I that's, that's a problem in the winter. And I don't get out much in the winter because of, I, I do have a mobility scooter, and that limits me as to where I can go, go and what I can do. But the thing about Stratford is there is a lot of unique buildings, and I've, I photographed most of the stuff in Stratford. I've sort of run other things to, to photograph here. Uh, the, the, the nice thing is that I've learned where the lighting is for any particular area, because over the last 15 years that I've been here, I've been everywhere I can possibly get on my scooter. And I been there to experience it during different times of the day. So I've, I've learned if I want a particular photograph, what time of the day I should be there in order, optimize the lighting, depending on what kind of a day it is.

    Craig (09:38):

    Of course, you talked about your mobility issue being the result of alcoholic neuropathy. Tell us how that came about and how you got through that period in, in your life with alcoholism.

    Fred (09:49):

    Well, uh, well, I was lucky, uh, I had a Dr. Thompson that got me into the hospital and for put me on, I don't know what it was, Valium or something for a week. I don't know. Uh, I was drugged up, let me put it that way. And I had a desire to get off alcohol. The doctor told me, like, when I came to Stratford, one of the problems I was having was, I guess my mobility. I, I was losing, uh, the abilities to, to walk. I was becoming a stagger. Uh, I, I guess I was what they call a, a working alcoholic. Uh, no one, no one really knew that I was an alcoholic. Uh, when I got to Stratford, my sister got me to go to the doctor and get tested. They did all kinds of tests, the ultrasounds, uh, cat scans, x-rays, blood tests and whatnot.

    Fred (10:43):

    And the doctor told me I had three months to a year to live if I didn't quit drinking. And I told him I had tried to quit drinking, but got the shake so bad that I had to have something to calm me down so that I can operate. And so he said, Okay, we're gonna put you in the hospital. They put me in the hospital for a week, and I came out and I haven't had a drink since, and I didn't go to Alcoholics Anonymous or anything else. Uh, they wanted to line me up with all kinds of support people, and I said, I don't need it. I, I want to quit. I'm gonna quit. And I did quit.

    Craig (11:18):

    So, Fred , when did you start drinking? At what age? And then when did you, uh, become sober?

    Fred (11:24):

    I started drinking probably my early thirties on a regular basis, and, uh, quit in 2009, September 26th, 2009. And when I got, uh, out here in Stratford.

    Craig (11:39):

    And what precipitated the drinking? Was it because of the rough and tumble world of advertising, or was it escape? What, what was the, what brought it on,

    Fred (11:47):

    Uh, partying? Uh, it started when I, I moved into a town. I was in a complex and there was a, a recreation centre, and there seemed to be a party every month. There was some occasion to have a party, and then there was a bowling league, and we got drinking on a regular basis there. And then I got divorced, and then I started to go out to the disco scene and meeting ladies and, uh, drinking more and more and more. And eventually it just got to the point where, um, I became dependent and I became a working alcoholic. Uh, I would, I would get stopped by the police and they never questioned me. Uh, I would go to work, I would, I would meet with clients, no one would question me, although I, I wouldn't drink until I got home that night. I wasn't starting to drink all day until I, I basically, uh, left TP O’Malley when we shut down and was working outta my house, uh, by myself and freelancing. And I would go to the bar. I, I would work every day until four o'clock, and at four o'clock I hop my car and drive over to a local bar that became a, a local hangout. And I would do that seven days a week and then go home and then sit and drink and watch television until I, I wasn't the type of person that had to finish the bottle, but I would drink until I got drunk and then go to bed.

    Craig (13:18):

    And in the middle of all this, you were not only, uh, busy with your advertising career, but you were also playing, uh, competitive hockey?

    Fred (13:26):

    Uh, I was playing hockey. I was a goalie. Yeah, <laugh>, uh, that, that screwed up my knees really bad. Uh, that's another problem with my legs, is my knees are all totally shot. Uh, that hurts when I walk. But, uh, yeah, I played gold for, uh, it was a men's recreational league, uh, every Sunday. And, uh, uh, I actually had my picture in the hockey hall of Fame. Uh, my wife at the time was the, uh, vice executive, vice president at, uh, Marsh McLennan, one of the largest insurance agencies in the world or insurance companies in the world. And she had the Hockey Hall of Fame, one of their clients. And they had this thing where, I think it was called Lo Hometown Heroes or something where, uh, you could submit pictures of, of local teams and whatnot. And we won the championship one year, and they took my picture and she took it and put it in the Hockey Hall of Fame. They waved the $50, uh, entry fee that you had to pay, I think, uh, Ford, it was running it at that time. They had a display where, touch screen display, we could go in, touch a spot on the map, and then look up the teams that were in there, and then any pictures that had been submitted. And so I could actually say my pictures in the hockey hall of fame, although I never played professionally. But, uh, yeah, I played goal for, um, almost 30 years, I guess.

    Craig (14:49):

    But that also led to an injury, did it not?

    Fred (14:52):

    Yeah. Uh, my best buddy, uh, I went to smother a puck and he went to lift the, uh, the opposing player's stick, missed the stick, came up, caught me in the throat, and, uh, I lost my voice for about three days. And I went to the doctor, and the doctor said that, uh, I, um,

    Craig (15:11):

    Damaged

    Fred (15:11):

    Just, just know, I didn't realize that I damaged my vocal cords at that point. I just lost my voice. And he said, I came within about a quarter of an inch of having my larynx smashed. And if that had happened, if somebody couldn't have performed a tracheotomy, that would've been it. But it was later on that I went in probably 15 years later as I went to the ear, nose and throat specialist for something else. And he put one of those scopes down my throat. And at one point he said, Go, he, I went, he, and he said, Go he again. He, he took the thing out and he said, Have you ever taken any major trauma to the throat? And initially I didn't think of what this hockey thing, and then I realized that, yeah, I had this point where I got hit in the throat with a hockey stick and almost got killed. He said, Well, what happened was, you said one of your vocal chords is they're shot the one side of your vocal chords you shot, and we could do surgery, but it's a 50 50 chance. He said, It's a very, very tricky surgery. And he said, You could lose your voice entirely. And he said, So what do you wanna do? Live with a voice you got, or possibly lose it entirely. So, Well, obviously I 50 50 option was not a, a good one, so I, I, I opted to not have the surgery.

    Craig (16:35):

    Do you ever imagine what could have happened, not just with that injury, but with your sobriety? If you hadn't, uh, confronted that, that problem head on,

    Fred (16:45):

    I'd be dead, simple. The fact I would be dead now. I wouldn't be talking to you, uh, if I hadn't quit drinking and the doctor gave me three months, two year to live, and here I am, <laugh>,

    Speaker 1 (16:57):

    You're listening to the Stratford Slice with Craig Thompson. Check out our website, thestratfordslice.com, and be sure to subscribe. And now back to the show.

    Craig (17:10):

    So how has that affected, uh, when you wake up in the morning, do you, are you like grateful every day? And that's sort of, is interpreted in the pictures that you're taking? I'm wondering what, uh, how that has changed your life apart from the fact that you're now alive, you're alive and not, not dead like the doctor had suggested, but how has that affected your approach, your attitude towards life?

    Fred (17:36):

    Um, I don't dwell too much on what life is doing or happening about, uh, how it affects me. I just, I just go through life as I wake up and what, what is there is what is there. And I, I, I don't do any deep thinking particularly about how things affect me or why things affect me. I just take them as they come.

    Craig (18:05):

    But you've developed a certain style on your photography. It's, uh, you've captured some of the most beautiful scenes in Stratford. What are you looking for through the viewfinder when you're taking the pictures, and what do you see that's unique about Stratford

    Fred (18:21):

    Hard question, Craig. I, I'm not sure. Um, I just go in every day and look at what's available really, and see things that I think might be of interest. Um, I'm primarily looking for lighting and

    <phone ring>

    Craig (18:44):

    Somebody wants you to take their picture.

    Fred (18:46):

    I thought I'd turned that off.

    Craig (18:48):

    That's okay.

    Fred (18:51):

    Sorry about that. Uh, um, I, I, I, I don't go out with a something in mind. I just go out and see what's available, uh, unless I'm, I'm, I'm following the, an event that, uh, is happening. I'm specifically going out in photographing, but when I do my regular photography, it's just to go out and see what's out there, uh, on any particular day. And if something catches my eye, then I try and capture as best I can.

    Craig (19:27):

    One of the unique things of Stratford is many small towns during the seventies and eighties got rid of a lot of their heritage buildings. Uh, you live downtown and Stratford is known all over Ontario and beyond for its beautiful, historic downtown core, which looks different every time you take a picture of it. Uh, do you agree with that? And do you think Stratford has that, uh, charm that, uh, other communities may have lost?

    Fred (19:53):

    It definitely has a lot of charm that a lot of places don't have. And as you said, lighting affects how it looks every time you go out. Things have changed. Uh, clouds, sun, whatever, uh, make, make the scene different every time. I mean, I can photograph the same thing, uh, every day of the week and, and it's gonna look differently. Uh, that's just lighting and, and circumstance. And the charm of, of Stratford is that you do have these unique buildings that you can capture at different times of the day and different times of the year and, and making each one look different.

    Craig (20:39):

    There were a lot of things that didn't happen during the pandemic. I'm wondering how you kept your photography going at a time when we were locked down and uh, how did you, what did you capture during the last two years,

    Fred (20:52):

    <laugh>? Well, initially it was all these patios that popped up out in the street. Everybody was interested in, in seeing, uh, that, uh, addition to the city. But really it didn't change my photography, uh, to any great extent, except a lot of places were closed. A lot of places there was restrictions. You had to wear a mask and that was annoying. But as far as the, the photography, it really, really didn't change anything that I had to do or, or did to, to carry on. It, it, it didn't affect me in any great, uh, capacity.

    Craig (21:37):

    Let's go back a little further in your history. You're originally, uh, from the United States, is that correct?

    Fred (21:42):

    That’s right. It was born down there. I was born in Abington, Pennsylvania, just outside of Rydall or just outside of Philadelphia, and lived in a little place called Rydal. It was just outside of Philadelphia. Abington was the closest place to Rydal where we lived. I lived there for four years, from 1945 to 49, and then my parents moved back to Canada. So I have a younger sister that was born down there. I have an older sister and older brother that were born up here. And then shortly after, we moved back here in 49. My baby sister was born in, in Canada. So there, there was two of us born in the States, born as British subjects, born abroad. My father went to Harrisburg, Pennsylvania and registry. We was the British Cons. I have papers to say that I'm, I'm a British subject born abroad because Canada was a dominion at that time back in 1949 or or 45 when I was born.

    Fred (22:32):

    So it was really considered part of the British Empire. And I, I guess, uh, <laugh>, I could be considered a British subject as well as an American as well as a Canadian. I never gave up my American citizenship. So I can still go back and get that. Not that I would ever want to <laugh>. I don't wanna be an American. I enjoy being a Canadian. I consider myself a Canadian. I, I really have rare, very few recollections of my life in, in, uh, Abington or Rydal, Pennsylvania where we lived, except for what it was told.

    Craig (23:09):

    So your Stratford connection is through your sisters. Was that the only reason you moved to Stratford or did you find that a smaller town, would it be better for, for your retirement? Well,

    Fred (23:19):

    My mother and two of my sisters moved here back in the seventies and, uh, I used to come down and visit them. So I, I got to know the, the town and enjoyed coming down here and enjoyed what it had to offer. And so I had no qualms about moving here when the time came, uh, Scott was at the top of my list of any other place I wanted to live, so I was happy to, happy to move here.

    Craig (23:47):

    And, uh, I wanna talk to you about some of the themes that you mentioned earlier, that you take the same pictures over and over again and sometimes there's different lights. So some of the photographs that I, uh, like the best are the ones you've taken of the river you have on river at different times of the season. And each, each image has a different, uh, perception. Also, the river is accessible to you cuz the pathways are, are paved. So what is it about the, the river that, uh, gives you a lot of material?

    Fred (24:16):

    Well, there's a lot of angles that you can, there's a lot of, uh, points of interest as well, but there's a lot of, lot of angles that you can take pictures from that change the perspective. And, uh, of course there's the wildlife, there's the swans. That's a big thing. Everybody loves the swans here and, uh, uh, ducks and geese of course. But, uh, the, the seasons, uh, the change the look of the, of the river, uh, come into it in a, in a big way. Um, the people, the, the activity on the water, the boats, the paddle boats, that kind of thing. There's always something going on. There's always something that catches my eye that seems to be of interest to me anyways. And, uh, so I take a photograph of it and hopefully other people like it too.

    Craig (25:14):

    Quite a few camera clubs come down to Stratford for excursions and, and taking pictures around the river and Shakespeare Gardens and things like that. What tips do you have about lighting? Like how can you shoot the same thing and have it look different every time? What are the techniques you use for lighting, capturing light?

    Fred (25:32):

    Uh, it, it's basically just different times of the day and, and different situations in the weather that generate the different looks. Uh, I, I, I don't look for anything specifically. Uh, as I said, most of the time I just go out and whatever is is available is if it catches my eye, I photograph it. I don't necessarily go out specifically with anything in mind when I particularly go out, just see what's there.

    Craig (26:04):

    You're getting busier and busier. What's, uh, next on your plans? Are you gonna do a book or are you going to do any sort of, uh, journalism, photography? How are you, uh, gaining momentum with your photograph photography career?

    Fred (26:18):

    Uh, I have no plans. Uh, basically I don't have the money to afford to be able to put anything together. Uh, I did a calendar one year. My brother-in-law financed it and we sold enough to cover the cost of, of the production. And, uh, I was disappointed because a lot of people said they would buy and then when time came they didn't buy. Now whether that was costing or what their circumstances were, but people just didn't come through. So it's, a lot of people have said, you put a book together and I'd love to put a book together, but someone's gonna have to bankroll it because I can't. So, uh, it's nothing that I've, uh, planned on doing. I, I'm not into doing film. Um, although I'd like to, I'd like to get a drone if I could, but again, it's strictly finances. Uh, I just don't have the, the money.

    Fred (27:14):

    When I retired down here, I came down here and, uh, I basically blue. So the money that I had in the house cuz I was still drinking, and that was basically where, where all my money went. It went down to drain, uh, it went, worked for alcohol, uh, uh, all my retirement, all my RSPs. Uh, I blew through it all on sale of my houses, sale of properties, farm properties, investment properties, All the money came in, basically went out as booze and, uh, booze. Took my life, took my wife and took my wealth, you know.

    Craig (27:51):

    But you are trying to turn things around through your art, through your photography, is that right? Uh, giving you some sense of peace?

    Fred (27:59):

    It gives me a purpose. It gives me something to do. Uh, and I, I enjoy doing it and I, I enjoy that other people enjoy it and that, that's what keeps me doing it. And just the fact that it seems a lot of people out there enjoy what I do and I enjoy doing it and sharing with them.

    Craig (28:20):

    Well, you have a remarkable talent, Fred , and it's, uh, great to have this chat with you and I appreciate your, your honesty.

    Fred (28:28):

    I appreciate you being here and you having the opportunity to tell my story.

    Craig (28:32):

    Thanks very much. My guest today has been Fred Gonder, uh, retired advertising executive art director and, uh, photographer.

    (28:40):

    You've been listening to the Stratford Slice with Craig Thompson. For more episodes, check out our website, the stratford slice.com, and be sure to subscribe. The Stratford slice is produced by Ballinran Entertainment, Southwestern Ontario's number one digital media studio. If you have a great story to tell and want to be on the podcast, please reach out to us through our website, thestratfordslice.com.

  • (00:00):

    The following is a podcast from Ballinran Entertainment.

    Craig Thompson (00:06):

    Hello, it's Craig Thompson, and this is the Stratford Slice. Being cut in half by a magician’s saw and living to tell the tale, my guest today on the Stratford Slice. My guest today is Lesley Walker-Fitzpatrick. And in doing the, the research for, for this podcast, uh, there is so much of your story, It's hard to know where to start, Lesley, but what jumped out at me was your early career working as Doug Henning’s magician’s assistant. And among the things that you had to endure was being cut in half by a saw. And here you are. You're here. You're not, uh, in two pieces.

    Lesley Walker-Fitzpatrick (01:11):

    No. There's magic in this universe, that's for sure. As my brother would've told us, there is magic in this universe.

    Craig (01:18):

    So tell me about your magic career, how you, uh, encountered Doug and what you, He was one of Canada's best known magicians in the day.

    Lesley (01:27):

    Uh, he was on the cover of Time Magazine. He was known worldwide. But in this day and age, it's, I'm surprised when people remember his name, younger people, and it's, it's a shame because Canada should be very proud of him. But he did go to the States for a majority of his career, and, um, he, um, was wonderful to work with. He was so, his energy was so hot, It was like ch you could almost feel it coming off him.

    Craig (02:01):

    And he was filling theaters like the Royal Alex?

    Lesley (02:04):

    Oh, yeah. I was in the, I was in his show at the Royal Alex with, um, Jennifer Dale. And, um, Ivan Wrightman was the director. Um, David Cronenberg, the writer, and Howard Shore, the musical director. And Terry Jones of Perth County Conspiracy was the, uh, singer.

    Craig (02:25):

    So it was a real who's who?

    Lesley (02:25):

    Yeah, It was a, a wonderful show. Um, we were, um, uh, a very, uh, loving and group and, and it was about hopeful things. It was about, uh, you know, magic and life and love and, uh, um, the people that did GodSpell in New York came up to see the show. They'd heard about this. And, um, so they decided to take it to Broadway, Stephen Schwartz, writing the music for the new version, which was called The Magic Show at the Court Theater in, um, on Broadway. And, um, writing for Magic is a very tricky thing because you have to be able to incorporate the needs of presenting magic within a plot. And, uh, they had trouble writing the new version for Broadway. So unfortunately, um, what happened is my part, which was the Goddess of Magic, the spiritual being, Doug's inner being made visible, became a cosmic whore and sang, and was the director's wife. So I lost my part.

    Craig (03:35):

    And how did you get into magic? Was it through performing or what was your first, How did you get connected with Doug?

    Lesley (03:40):

    I, I wasn't a performer. I, um, when I, I went to the University of Rochester where I started my photography interest too. Um, I, uh, needed to, um, support myself at university, which I did through working, um, with some of the art classes. And when I came, graduated and came to Toronto, I, I worked through, um, the Ontario College of Art, and, uh, I became hooked up with international top models to, uh, to earn a living. And, uh, that when, when some yappy kid came in and said he, uh, he wanted to audition models for a magic show. I was the only one they sent because I was a motorcycle riding, um, bit of an edged <laugh> character. So, um, so I was sent to, uh, to um, um, meet Doug and I had an appointment, but my brother, who was quadriplegic and mute had a, a crisis.

    Lesley (04:45):

    And I had to leave Toronto, take the bus down to St. Catherine's, where my mother and he were living then to help out with this situation. He had a life and death situation. So I called Doug, I said, I'm sorry, I can't make it to this audition. You know, my quadriplegic brother is, um, <laugh> just almost died, and I have to be here. And he told me later he was thinking, Oh, the poor kid, right? So he said, Well, how about, you know, next week at a certain time? So we, we set a time that I would, um, he, he held the auditions open for me. So, um, he picked me up in Beauty, his old Volkswagen bus that had holes in it. We used to go to shows in this, in the wintertime with the wind and the snow pouring. And anyway, so he picked me up and he proceeded to, Oh, no, I, I met him on the subway, and if you believe in magic, when I was sitting there thinking, Now, do I really want this magic?

    Lesley (05:48):

    A little energy spike went up my spine. So I knew there was something special there. And, um, anyway, he, he took me around to all the other, um, to, to audition all the other women. He brought me with him like I was, So finally at the end of the day, I said, Don't you wanna audition me <laugh>? And uh, so he had me do some free form slow motion dance, which I had, you know, um, used to hold poses at the art school for 20 minutes. Right. <laugh>. So after that I was, I was, uh, I was on and, uh, became his partner. And we traveled through Ontario, did various club dates, and, um, um, for good period of time until he did his, um, at, um, the Toronto Center for the Arts. He did an, um, an evening to try and get backers to get money.

    Lesley (06:47):

    So I, uh, did the backers show with him, and we got the money fromHowie Deveritt, who ran Le Strip on Yonge Street. He was one of the backers. So our first rehearsal hall was on the third floor above Le Strip <laugh>. And I was very shy in those days. And I would, um, kind of walk along Yonge street and slip into, you know, into Le Strip and coming out, I would slip out and try and, you know, merge with the traffic right away. So when I had been attacked by the lion in that rehearsal hall, it was not an anonymous leaving from that building.

    Craig (07:27):

    So tell me about all the things that a magician's assistant has to go through. Um, some of the, with, if you can, uh, reveal some of the state secrets, but, Well, I, um, you were sawn in half, obviously

    Lesley (07:39):

    I've been sawn in half. I've been split in three. I've had light bulbs pushed through my body, which, uh, belonged to Orson Wells. That was, um, an illusion that had Doug got, that had belonged to Orson Wells. Um, I've been set on fire. I've been handcuffed chain-tied in bags. Locked in trunks. Yeah.

    Craig (07:58):

    So what's the illusion that fools the audience to think that it's, uh, are they distracted? What is, uh, magic in its essence

    Lesley (08:09):

    Magic, And we've had magic, you know, for hundreds and thousands of years, I think after my experience in it, it's, it's so that we stretch our imagination. What we think of as day to day reality is, is, you know, is very temporary. And I think it's to stretch our imaginations to open up to other possibilities on the planet. And in the universe.

    Craig (08:36):

    We want to believe in magic.

    Lesley (08:38):

    Well, there is magic <laugh>. There is magic. It's just, it's a grace. It's not, in my mind, real magic is a grace. It's not a power. It's not, I I have the power. I can blow you up. It's a grace. It's subtler. It's, it's from beauty, it's from the life force.

    Craig (08:59):

    So you got training from one of the masters. You weren't a magician. You were a model, but you got to be inside the world of magic for a number of of years. What was that like?

    Lesley (09:08):

    Well, I wasn't, I wasn't like most, you know, young magicians hanging out in magic shops. In fact, Doug would not take me to magic shops. He wanted me to have the pure belief in magic. He didn't want it to be sullied by tricks. You don't say tricks to a lady magician. Right. Um, so, uh, I didn't get involved in that aspect of, um, magic, although I met many of the greats of the time. Um, I met Dave Vernon and, um, uh, many other, um, Gene Anderson who invented the torn and restored newspaper. Um, Jim Robertson, who was a magic historian out from California and Mars, of course, um, who, you know, it was wonderful to be able to share stories with cuz secrecy is important. And I didn't even tell my quadriplegic mute brother any secrets.

    Craig (10:10):

    So, so are you still bound by that code of, you were his co-conspirator. So you had to be brought into the tent, so to speak, to, uh, help, uh, him achieve his tricks.

    Lesley (10:21):

    Right. Well see, don't say tricks. <laugh> magic, because Doug really believed, I don't know if you know of a book called The Last Unicorn by Peter S. Beel. That was a very deep route in Doug's, um, philosophy, his belief, his early philosophy and belief. And I think a lot of the ideas in there were roots, um, to developing Spellbound, which was the show at the Royal Alex. Yeah. And, uh, so, um, you know, also in, in this era that beautiful subtle magic is sort of gotten lost, I think, in our much more, um, violent reality of the day.

    Craig (11:06):

    Let's go back before magic and before Rochester, you actually were born in Scotland, right?

    Lesley (11:11):

    I was.

    Craig (11:11):

    Tell me about your childhood, cuz I remember hearing that you've lived all over the world.

    Lesley (11:17):

    Well, I was born in Scotland in Kilwinning, um, which is on the west coast of Scotland. My mother was raised in Saltcoats-Ardrossan-Stevenson. My, my great-grandfather was a painter, was an artist. He, um, he cycled to Glasgow once a week from Saltcoats to, to take, to study, um, art. Because when, when they, when he told his parents his Victorian parents that he wanted to be a painter, they apprenticed him to a house painter, <laugh>. So, but he ended up going to art school. And when I was a very small child, he took me up into the third floor of his attic in this huge chest that had a secret drawer, pulled out the secret drawer and showed me his drawings of nudes <laugh> from, um, art school. Anyway, that was, um, we went to, um, Guyana next.

    Craig (12:12):

    What was your father doing traveling like that?

    Lesley (12:14):

    He was, um, um, a chemical engineer. So in Guyana, he, he looked after the chemistry of the sugar on the plantation. So I learned to walk on a freighter across the <laugh>, crossing the Atlantic in a storm. I decided to stand up. So I think I've been, you know, rocking and rolling ever since.

    Craig (12:34):

    So, so all over the world. And then you ended up in Canada?

    Lesley (12:37):

    In Canada, yeah. He, um, my father's specialty was actually glass. He, um, helped to develop safety glass where windshields used to break in great pointed shards. Um, they broke them in, so they broke into little hexagonal pieces and didn't kill people like they used to. So, so he worked for, um, a company called Diplate in Oshawa, then Windsor. Then he went to another glass company in Chicago, and then with Ford in, uh, Detroit. Um, and then they moved an Englishman to run the Ford Glass Plant in Canada, which was just outside Niagara Falls.

    Craig (13:18):

    So it was a well off upbringing. You didn't lack for anything, would you say that? Or a fairly, uh, good, comfortable life?

    Lesley (13:25):

    No, I had, I was, uh, secure, um, good parents until the struggle of, um, a quadriplegic brother being born. And then it was, became, um, a challenge.

    Craig (13:39):

    Your brother John, um, how old were you when he was born?

    Lesley (13:43):

    I was about 12. And so I became, um, like a second mother to him. I became the playmaker. Um, and I, we became very, very close, my brother and I. And, um, I was, um, part of him figuring out his way out of his silence. Uh, one New year's day when I was a little hung over. He was all excited, all excited because we, uh, alphabetized all his records so that he, when he could indicate yes and no, with body language if you knew him so that he could choose what music he wanted to listen to. So he got across to me that, that, um, New Year's day that there were clues in the record and I, “clues?” um, I couldn't quite figure that, that's all. I said, Well, do you wanna, do you wanna buy, go buy new music? No, no.

    Lesley (14:41):

    All the usual questions didn't work until it just, it fell into my head, magic. His idea. It was like the super saturated solution. And, and the, that came in and the whole picture fell in place that he was going to use the words on all his records to write his poetry. So he would direct you through the alphabet to the letter, then he wanted, then you'd read off the artist to the, to the artist you wanted, then you'd read off the albums, then you'd read off songs till it got to the song he wanted. And when it came, you'd play it. When it got to the word or the phrase he wanted, he would let you know. So all his poetry came from a word here, a phrase there, a word here, phrase here. And he won, um, honorable mention in the Commonwealth poetry competition.

    Craig (15:30):

    So he was completely trapped because of the condition he had. Everything else.

    Lesley (15:34):

    Yeah. Yeah. He would die on the floor if we didn't help him. Yeah, no, he was completely vulnerable and helpless. So that's why I love the fact that you met Stephen Hawking.

    Craig (15:43):

    Yes,

    Lesley (15:43):

    Stephen Hawking. He was brilliant. Right. My brother was brilliant. He invented this, A unique way to write poetry.

    Craig (15:49):

    Well, Stephen Hawking sounds like he was better off in, in a way because Stephen was able to use a touch screen or a, a computer keyboard to synthesize his voice cuz he wasn't able to speak. But he was able to move a mouse with his eye, uh, twitching his eye. Well,

    Lesley (16:06):

    We were just working on that when, um, we got to the, where, uh, they kept trying to get him to use a switch a certain way, but we knew that the best way for him to use a switch was to to push back,

    Craig (16:19):

    Move his body.

    Lesley (16:20):

    Yeah. And, um, uh, for a long time the professionals didn't want him to do that, but that was the best thing to work. Anyway, he, he died. We were working on getting in the computer system when he died.

    Craig (16:32):

    Was that prior to the era of Stephen Hawking, how, what year were we talking here?

    Lesley (16:38):

    John died in 98 and computers were still fairly new. And, uh, Jim Robertson, um, from California, who was, uh, a computer expert at the time, surprised Johnny with an Apple computer. But it was too soon. It hadn't, the technology hadn't gotten to the point that John could use it.

    Craig (17:00):

    Well, with Stephen Hawking, um, he was lucky enough that his condition was diminishing over time. And it wasn't really until Intel and the computer chip came about in the 2000s that he had to rely on it more and more. But, uh, initially he wasn't, didn't need too much, but more in the last years of his life, it was all, uh, he was confined and trapped and it was really, it was amazing to see how he, uh, this is why I'm interested in talking about your brother, cuz I, I, um, spent two, uh, weekends with Stephen Hawking. One, I went to talk to him or have a meeting with him over lunch, at his kitchen table, uh, the first time. And then the second time we went back with William Shatner and did an interview with Stephen Hawking. And

    Lesley (17:45):

    Lucky you,

    Craig (17:45):

    <laugh>. And well, for me, it was one of the most impressive people I've met in, in my life, because you don't know what to talk about when you meet something like that cuz there's no back and forth. So it becomes, uh, almost like a presentation to them. You're talking, you're in, you're making up in your head what the questions might be. And, uh, at the end of our lunch, uh, he said, um, nice to meet you, uh, look forward to. It was very simple phrases that he had already pre-programmed into his computer. And so it was just quite remarkable sitting across from this man who was this brilliant scientist. And, uh, well, it made a whole new appreciation for that.

    Lesley (18:31):

    Yeah. The communication. I, I, I used to always say to Johnny, it's not that much easier with words for people to communicate sometimes, you know, there's, especially, we see that now with the, the rift in society. And, uh, but with John, I mean, we, I knew we knew each other so well that, um,

    Craig (18:53):

    You could read his mind almost.And, and he, you probably, Yeah,

    Lesley (18:57):

    Yeah, ESP, I mean, it's, it's a, it's a grace. It's not, Oh, I can listen to your thoughts. It's a grace. It's, uh, I mean, there was a a time when, you know, we'd be telling jokes and if somebody was watching it, um, you wouldn't, I I, John was responding to me <laugh>, you know, we were going back and forth. This joke was getting bigger and bigger and bigger, and we collapsed on the ground laughing. Well, he was already collapsed on the ground laughing. But, but yeah, no, the communication was there without him using words. Yeah.

    Craig (19:31):

    And his poetry and, uh, his life were the inspiration for a documentary the CBC did on Man Alive. Uh, quite some time ago.

    Lesley (19:40):

    That’s right. It won the first, um, Gemini, uh, for a documentary, John Walker and Paul, um, sorry, I've just lost his last name. Um, and it won, um, um, a Chris Ette, uh, and another award in California. It almost was at the Oscars that year. They picked five and it was number six.

    (20:06):

    You're listening to the Stratford Slice with Craig Thompson. Check out our website, thestratfordslice.com and be sure to subscribe. And now back to the show.

    Craig (20:18):

    So what brought you to Stratford?

    Lesley (20:22):

    I, a two and a half year, almost two and a half year old son. And, um, we were in a small house in Toronto and, um,

    Craig (20:32):

    We being your, you and Richard, Richard Patrick, your husband

    Lesley (20:35):

    Richard Patrick my husband and, who's an actor. And he thought, well, Stratford would be a great address for an actor and we'd be able to afford a house with a backyard for our son. And I wanted my son to know trees to, to know nature. And so we moved here in, um, 89. So, and it's the longest I've ever lived anywhere. So I put my roots down and I've, you know, tried the best I can to, uh, to be a, a good citizen of Stratford.

    Craig (21:04):

    But you've also had a number of other interesting jobs. You worked for Air Canada for a time I understand, as a flight attendant.

    Lesley (21:10):

    I I was a flight attendant. Yeah. I took a year off university and I flew for Air Canada during that time.

    Craig (21:16):

    And what parts of the world did you see?

    Lesley (21:19):

    Um, I went to London a lot and, um, Vancouver down east, uh, Los Angeles. Uh, it was, I went, I decided to go back to University <laugh>. They offered me a full-time job. We were, we were all hired on as temporary summer flight attendants. And, uh, I was offered a full-time job, but I decided to go back and complete my degree in developmental psych.

    Craig (21:47):

    So you moved to Stratford some 30, 33 years ago. And at what point, or have you always been an advocate? Like what did you, what was your experience in the world that said, Well, this is a great town. I want to get involved in preserving. Its, uh, its charm and its integrity. So what was that motivating factor for you in sort of getting involved? Because most people just sort of, I'm gonna live my life, peace and quiet. But you, you wanted to be involved, I guess.

    Lesley (22:16):

    You know, I, um, was used to sort of fighting for things I love because we had to fight for my brother's life, often with doctors and hospitals because his life was devalued, um, so many times. So I guess that's kind of a, a route to it. When I love something, you know, you try to protect it, you try to take care of it. And, uh, Stratford has such a history of people protecting it. Tom Patterson and, uh, um, uh, uh, Tom,

    Craig (22:50):

    Tom Moore, the, the railway almost went down the river. Yeah.

    Lesley (22:53):

    Saving the river. Um, so, um, yeah, I guess <laugh>. So the, the first step I took into that was when Walmart wanted to build a huge Supercenter in Stratford. And I just really worried about our downtown. Um, and I also did not care for the ethics of that particular corporation. I did a lot of research and found out a lot of things about it. So, and at that point, um, Dan Matheson was newly mayor, and he held a, um, a big, uh, citizens gathering about the issue at City Hall, which was really well attended. And I plucked up my courage for the first time to, to, to, uh, to talk in public in Stratford on this issue. And I went on to be a citizen participant, um, in the OMB hearing on, um, Walmart. And we did beat Walmart, but they got us on a, a loophole and found a different location. So they did not build the huge supercenter that they wanted to on Meadowland. They ended up on Ontario Street.

    Craig (24:05):

    Where was it gonna go?

    Lesley (24:06):

    Originally it was going to go, um, out past where? On the south side, um, coming into town

    Craig (24:16):

    Past Canadian Tire. Yeah.

    Lesley (24:18):

    Yeah. So it was gonna be a huge Supercenter, but so, you know, it's, it's smaller, and our downtown, you know, is still good <laugh>. So, and we have to keep protecting that because that's a really big part of the economic health of Stratford.

    Craig (24:37):

    Also on the topic of community activism, activism, you were quite involved in a campaign to stop, stop a major, uh, glass factory in Stratford a couple of years ago. Tell us about that.

    Lesley (24:49):

    Well, uh, and my father had been a glass expert, which was kind of, uh, um, strange for me, but it was a very different kind of glass, a much more polluting kind of plant. And it was just fascinating to see the whole city come together because there was such an awareness that this heavy polluting industry right at our Southern Gateway was going to change the, the character of Stratford. And, um, with a 328 foot smoke stack that was going to be putting particulate matter and sulphur, uh, sulphuric acid, you know, over our agricultural lands. And, um, I and a number of other people stood, um, on the steps of city hall for these 37 days in the winter to, to be part of trying to stop this. And the winds came, came from the south. It would've been, uh, this pollution would've landed on our downtown.

    Lesley (25:41):

    But it was wonderful because so many people in the town came together. Loreena McKennit had a group, um, looking at the demo Democratic processes involved with this, um, Sharon Collingwood, uh, um, from Get Concerned Stratford organized, uh, signs and, uh, we had, um, meetings, even though it was c uh, we, we could get, have a hundred people gather in the square behind and, and the vigil. And, uh, we were able to stop that. Um, we beat City Hall and Beijing and, uh, to protect in, in the tradition of so many that have protected Stratford in the past, we were able to, um, protect her from that, Um, kind of a wrong development.

    Craig (26:28):

    The product did not, Go ahead. What lessons are there to be learned for the future from that, uh, experience?

    Lesley (26:35):

    Well, for one thing, you know, that so many citizens do care about the heritage and the, the character of our city and, and many other, um, the Wellington Water watchers really were an important part of that. They're a, a great environmental group. And, um, we gave, uh, hope to lots of other, um, uh, groups that are fighting, uh, wrong development. Uh, you know, the one that's coming up is the four 13 that's gonna go through our wetlands and our wildlands and our agricultural lands for what? A few minutes, uh, traffic. Um, so, uh, yeah, so there's battles. You know, we, the way we are on the planet now, we have to fight for everywhere, for every tree because it's come to that we're, it's, we have our precious plant. We have to protect her. And we did that in Stratford by stopping this very polluting glass plant as a community, we came together.

    Craig (27:32):

    Right. One thing you mentioned about saving different things is the saving of City Hall, because there was a movement underfoot in the 1970s to replace it with a hotel and a revolving restaurant. That's right. And, uh, we now have the most picturesque city hall in anywhere.

    Lesley (27:47):

    I know. We would've had, what an ugly, uh, modern hotel or something there instead. I mean, so Stratford has had a number of people over the years stand up to fight for her to keep her character. And, uh, we did that of course, um, to, um, there was a big move to tear down the Grand Trunk Railroad building, which could be an incredible, it could be the heart of our city again. I don't know if you've ever heard of, um, development in, um, France called Luma Arles. It’s in the city of Arles, which is a little bit bigger than our Stratford, but it's a, an arts town. Um, it's where Vincent Van Gogh painted and they took their, um, their old railroad building and repair, um, shops that are right downtown in a and they have turned it into an international incredible arts center. And, uh, Maya Hoffman of, uh, I think it's LaRosh Drugs or something was behind it, visionary, a real visionary.

    Lesley (28:52):

    And to, to, um, with the purpose of, um, taking, looking at the best of contemporary intelligence to, um, to help us go into the future. So I think our Grand Trunk could become, I think the North American version of Luma Arles It would be such a nice thing cuz Frank Gary was our, our Canadian architect was part of the Luma Arles development. And, um, we have the arts here. It could be an incredible, it could be a beating heart again for Stratford. So I'm very glad that we were able to, um, stop it from being torn down. And, um, I was on the Heritage Committee for a period of time, and, um, Cynthia Venables and I fought to, um, to do the Heritage report on the building. Um, some forces didn't want us to do that, but we did. And, um, it came out in terms of the provincial guidelines, it fulfilled, more than fulfilled all the requirements to be a heritage, um, uh, building. In fact, it's, it's heritage for Canada, it's heritage for Canada. Canada's built on the railroads, right. So, um, so I very, uh, was very pleased that I was, because of working on the Heritage Report. Uh, we got into the building and I took three cameras with me and Lovely. It was a beautiful sunny day. And I, I did the series inside that building that were up at the Bruce Hotel for a long time.

    Craig (30:32):

    Yes. Photography has been a big part of what you've observed in Stratford, so that you're going back to your original talent and your original skill, photography. What do you see when you look through the lens in Stratford that you might not see in another community of its size?

    Lesley (30:47):

    Well, I guess, um,

    Craig (30:50):

    Is there a magic of Stratford that

    Lesley (30:51):

    The, Well, Strat, of course, Stratford is magic as theatre. The, the, the magic of theatre and, and the arts. And it's a confluence of, you know, of agriculture, the land and the arts and the service industries. It's, um, it's very unique that way. We're an international centre, and yet we're only, what, 32,000 something. Um, so there's a, a wonderful quality of life in terms of the size of the city. And so it should be protected. It should be protected for Canada because it's a jewel in Canada's cultural crown. So I'm very aware of that after living here for a long time. And, uh, I put my, um, energy when, when necessary in to, to protect.

    Craig (31:38):

    We're seeing recently that Stratford does not escape, uh, the social ills that affect everywhere else. We have issues of, of poverty, homelessness, uh, affordability of, of housing, people who can't, uh, afford to live here. What, um, where does Stratford play in that whole role for the, the vision of towns of our size, you know, across Canada?

    Lesley (32:02):

    Well, in this era of predatory real estate, um, our future directions are being determined by out of town developers and not people who understand and know the character and the heritage of the towns and downtown cores everywhere. You know, look at the troubles London has had, um, with their downtown, you know, being decimated by malls. And, um, Stratford it because of the unique characteristics has kept on held onto our downtown. And people come all the time. I, I work downtown and I, people come just for a day trip. They don't necessarily come to go to the theatre, although many people do. Um, people from all over come because they just wanna be in this kind of, um, human artistic, downtown core. And, um, so yeah,

    Craig (33:00):

    But Stratford still has to have other elements of the economy. We have the auto industry, We have a lot of people who come here for, for jobs that aren't necessarily connected to the arts or the tourism sector. How do we ensure that we maintain, uh, a community that is open and accessible to everyone?

    Lesley (33:20):

    Well, I think, I think it is. I mean, people, not even, not just Theatergoers come to wanna be here. Um, I mean, we're more affordable than a lot of cities. Um, in terms of our future development, I think we have to be really careful how we yes. Build new homes, but what kind and where, um, and how affordable, not not, um, not the kind of stack townhouses that that would probably end up being, um, speculatory for Airbnbs, which is a real danger for Stratford, but, um, truly affordable homes. Um, again, we need to make sure we don't spill out onto agriculture, onto nature, but there are, uh, areas of town that, that are appropriate for new housing developments.

    Craig (34:18):

    Infill

    Lesley (34:19):

    Yeah, infill. And there are places that are not, um, like on the, uh, Ontario Street between Queen Street, and Trow Avenue is a controversy right now, which will be, um, coming before the Ontario Land Tribunal, um, the end of October, um, which, and out of town developer wants to build, um, take over that block and build Mrs. Augusto townhouse there, right on the, the aorta of going downtown to the heart of Stratford. And, um, so there's many citizens fighting it. We've presented to city council several times, many, many citizens presented with clear, reasonable arguments that were ignored by too many counsellors. So that's why we have to go to the Ontario Land Tribunal. Um, there are three heritage buildings, you'll recognize the, the old, um, Chinese restaurant, but behind that facade is the house that George McLaughlin, who was the furniture, um, magnet in Stratford years ago. Um, it could be restored. Robert Ritz came up with a win win, win win, uh, development plan for that area that would, that would give enough density, more than enough density of what, what Stratford is requiring in terms of future population while keeping the heritage and the character of the town on that important, um, road that, that leads right into our downtown.

    Craig (35:49):

    Yes, I was gonna mention that because municipalities, especially places like Stratford that are prevented from expanding their, by their boundaries are being encouraged by the province to explore higher density and infill development. So that's sort of what a lot of the arguments are being made. We need to have more density, more infill, but

    Lesley (36:10):

    We have lots of other areas that are, that are brown fields that could fulfill that mission that doesn't have to be on that important, um, roadway into our downtown.

    Craig (36:22):

    So how do you say to developer, Don't buy this land and buy this land. How, what kind of policies do you need to shape that kind of developer?

    Lesley (36:29):

    I don't, that's, that's the old battle is it to, um, for our, our future, for our, uh, our to protect our heritage. Um, there are things worth so much more than money on this planet. And, um, so we need, uh, city councils who understand that they have to protect the character and the quality of life for their citizens while, um, encouraging the appropriate kind of development in the appropriate places.

    Craig (36:59):

    Do you see Stratford's future as being, some people are worried that it'll become an exclusive enclave only for people who are fleeing the high prices of, of Toronto. We've seen a lot of that in the real estate area now. Do you think we can protect our community for a wide range of people and interests?

    Lesley (37:17):

    Well, I think a lot of the people that are attracted to live in Stratford are attracted to the, the quality of life. In fact, a number of the citizens, the new citizens who presented to council about the Queen-Trow issue, said we came here, you know, for the, for the, the character of the city not to be in, you know, and Mississauga-style town houses is, so a lot of the new citizens were, you know, are upset too about this potential development. But, um, no, I I mean, because our economy is based on, uh, service and agriculture and automotive and some industry, yeah, you will get, um, lots of different, uh, people from lots of different walks of life here, which makes it a much more diverse and rich city.

    Craig (38:08):

    But a lot of those people right now have to commute in from Kitchener, New Hamburg, other places like that. We don't have enough housing stock to accommodate simply everybody right now. And it's a bit of a challenge.

    Lesley (38:19):

    I heard a rumour about some new development going out still on the edge of town. I, I don't know any details, so I wouldn't, but a lot <laugh>. So I mean, there are areas in town that, that, that can accommodate, um, new housing.

    Craig (38:38):

    Yeah. So tell me how you've um, sort of managed to get through the pandemic in the last couple of years. You've been doing a lot of photography, right? You've been taking lots of pictures.

    Lesley (38:48):

    <laugh>, Well, just before the pandemic was when, uh, the Dominion House closed down. And I spent a, a lot of time in that last week that the Dominion House was open.

    Craig (38:59):

    Now the Dominion House, for those who don't know, is, uh, 1865, 1865 Hotel Tavern, very popular, uh, bar and drinking hole right next to the railway station.

    Lesley (39:09):

    I can't tell you how many people said “I met my wife here”. In fact, “I met all of my wives here”, <laugh>, you know, it was a, a very deep, uh, important part of Stratford. And, you know, the railroad men from way you know, a hundred years ago would come and chat and talk about what was going on. And the railroad guys that I met when I was photographing there said, Well, they probably talked about the same things we talked about. It was a wonderful thing cuz I, I'm not a a big bar girl, but I was made so welcome in that community when I spent a lot of time that, that last week that it was open photographing, I photographed at night, I photographed during the day, I photographed the outside. And then, um, on the anniversary of it closing, I did a gorilla art exhibit with,

    Craig (39:58):

    On the fence.

    Lesley (39:58):

    On the fence. I, I, I had I have hundreds of photographs from that last week follow the people. And I, I can't tell you how, uh, warm and experienced it was to, to be taken into the bosom of that, that, uh, Dominion House community. And so I, I printed, I think there's, I dunno, there's hundreds. And I, uh, bought a little laminating machine and I laminated them all and I punched the holes and I, I put ties in. Now the garden ties, you have to be careful. Cause in the winter they will un-swirl in the dark, in the cold. So I had to then use, uh, paper wire things as well to reinforce them. And um, so, um, so a group of us, one, um, Friday night, 10 o'clock at night went out and, and put them all up on the fence. And they're, three years later they're still, they're still there.

    Lesley (40:51):

    They're still there. Well, I, I, I, I've asked a few people, I said, Well, should I take them down? And, and I was given the answer by Scott McOwen, I would miss them. So every I check every, so often there's a hole and I go out and, or one comes off and it's flapping in the wind, and I, every time I go by, I check and look for holes and I go out and repair them. So I don't know how long it's gonna be up there. I don't know. I was thinking, well, maybe I should do an auction at some point of the patina photographs that have been up on the fence, some of them, some of them have been there since the whole three years. Others have been replacements, but, you know, and, and find a worthy cause to, um, to, um, auction them off for <laugh>.

    Craig (41:35):

    And are you turning your lens to anything else at the moment? Are you focused on any, any particular projects?

    Lesley (41:40):

    Um, well, two of my photographs, um, were just, um, featured at the Female Eye Film Festival in Toronto. It was the 20th anniversary, and they to have, um, still photographs as well as the, um, the films. And, um, so I entered a five of my images that, that I call are, um, the consciousness of nature, like, um, and, um, two of them were chosen to be, uh, at the Female Eye Film Festival. So I was given a pass to all. I went to see like six films a day for four days and meet all kinds of interesting women. All the films are directed by women. And, um, so yeah.

    Craig (42:25):

    Were these images abstract or were they particular subjects that you could

    Lesley (42:29):

    Well, I would call it pixel painting. A little bit of pixel painting. I, where, um, I, um, started before selfies. Um, the whole field of self-portraiture was a very legitimate part of art. And back in my twenties, well my, my first photographic subject was my brother John, because I wanted to show the beautiful spirit of this brother that I knew when the world saw his crippled exterior. So that was my very first photographic project. And I also, during times of deep depression trying to cope with my brother's disability and various other things in my life, um, I turned the camera on myself because I thought, well, it's better to be creative and look at what's going on rather than lying here. So, um, so I have a, a body of work from my twenties. And, um, so I sometimes use some of those images in other images, like one of i one called Riveresque, which is this beautiful shot of a small river behind my sister's house actually with, uh, a bit of a self portrait.

    Lesley (43:48):

    This all blended in and it's like the spirit of the river. So that kind of thing is one thing I'm doing. I'm, I'm, I'm, uh, photographing strawberries right now, it’s Strawberry season. Um, I, um, when I was in Toronto for the Female Eye Film Festival, I did some, uh, street photography, um, and entered a couple of those in the Lens culture. I don't know whether they'll get any, um, I, I, um, there was, um, I'm just trying to remember the name. I'm in a couple of books, um, photographic books Who's who in Visual Art, um, from, uh, Germany. Um, that was from a number of years ago. Um, I I I'm not limited to one kind of photography. I, I, I have a very roving eye. I <laugh>, I'm always looking. Yeah. I always have my camera with me.

    Craig (44:41):

    And is your website, uh,

    Lesley (44:42):

    My website's outta date, photographically. There's a lot of information there about, um, magic and I was an artist in the schools, that kind of thing. And my, some of my brother's poetry, some of my older poetry is there.

    Craig (44:56):

    Well maybe we'll post some of the images on our podcast website Oh, sure, sure. And just share some of them with you. Sure.

    Lesley (45:01):

    Um, what was I just gonna say?

    Craig (45:05):

    You were saying you always have your camera with you. Everybody has a camera with them now.

    Lesley (45:09):

    Well, the phone, I know. Yeah, that's true. And so, uh, you know, I, I've seen many changes in photography since I was 20. You know, I started with the single lens reflex camera, uh, slides in black and white. And I went through the Polaroid era. I did a joint show with Dave Heath, who was my photographic mentor. He was, um, professor of, uh, photography at Ryerson for many, many years. And, uh, um, I went with him to, he finally, he started as an orphan in Philadelphia. And it was a beautiful thing that when he was 85, the, um, museum in Philadelphia honoured him with a, a show. And so I, I was there and, uh, it was a beautiful circle for his life. Uh, I was quite close to Dave. He was a beautiful, he's one of the masters of photography.

    Craig (45:59):

    Well, it's been great to, to get you to know you a bit better. And thanks for, for your time, Lesley. Very interesting, eclectic life

    Lesley (46:06):

    Little eclectic life.

    Craig (46:07):

    And here you are in Stratford

    Lesley (46:09):

    And I love it. And, uh, you know, um, we need to protect the heritage and character in the city because she's very special. Thank you.

    (46:19):

    You've been listening to the Stratford Slice with Craig Thompson. For more episodes, check out our website, thestratfordslice.com, and be sure to subscribe. The Stratford slice is produced by Ballinran Entertainment, Southwestern Ontario's number one digital media studio. If you have a great story to tell and want to be on the podcast, please reach out to us through our website, thestratfordslice.com.

  • (00:00):

    The following is a podcast from Ballinran Entertainment

    Craig Thompson (00:05):

    From the heart of Stratford, Ontario. I'm Craig Thompson, and this is The Stratford Slice. What does it mean, “You're a good man, Charlie Brown”? We'll find out as we shell some peanuts with a man who rubbed shoulders with the legendary Charles Schultz. He's a former actor who once walked in the shoes of the comic strip icon, Charlie Brown.

    Craig (00:38):

    I'm gonna introduce my guest in a moment, but first I want to go back to the summer of 1976. I was working as a usher at the Stratford Festival. They hired teenagers, uh, back then. Now they hire mature adults, retirees, maybe some even who worked there as teenagers. I don't know. We had flashlights and we ushered people into their seats. This way please, watch your step, please. I remember that season, Nicholas, uh, Pinel and Richard Bonette alternated in the role of Hamlet. There was the Tempest with William Hut and Maggie Smith was in the importance of being earnest. Apart from memorizing these three plays front to back and back to front, and annoying my family with my amazing, uh, stage skills, my theatrical skills and my memory, I remember two other, uh, things. Um, the great Canadian actress Jackie Burrows and her naked cartwheel across the stage during a curtain call, and the smell of those funny, uh, cigarettes that we were introduced to just outside the, the stage door. And that was the summer I first met my guest today, Rick Whalen, who is sitting across the table from me today, some five decades later. Rick, glad to have you here on the Stratford slice. What do you remember from that summer?

    Rick Whelan (01:58):

    I don't remember too much <laugh>. Thank you for having me as a guest, Craig. Uh, actually, I remember, um, standing next to the stage manager, uh, when Jackie Burrows made that famous cartwheel. Uh, she was fun, happy with a lot of things about the show. And I believe she and Gale Garnett were having a bit of a tiff. And, uh, so they took their curtain calls together and they were on each side of the stage, and they both nodded and they both came on. Well, Jackie nodded and Gale came out, but Jackie didn't. And so Gale took her bow, and then Jackie did her famous cartwheel nude, you know, curtain call. And John Hayes, who was then the producer at Stratford muttered to himself, “that bitch” <laugh>. And it was a memorable moment. And, uh, but I, I love Jackie. And, uh, I remember we were in, at, uh, in Vancouver Island touring with a show, and she was, she was really an extraordinarily unique person, and her dress was, was extremely unique. Uh, she was, you know, stripe stockings, crazy hair, all sorts of different scarves. And I remember I spent an afternoon with her walking around, uh, you know, Vancouver Island, uh, and people looking at her and some men kind of saying, Oh, what the heck is wrong with you? And I sort of, you know, I, I felt sorry for her because she was bold enough to be different mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And yet she was taking a lot of abuse. But she was a, a wonderful actress, a wonderful person. And, uh, we really got along.

    Craig (03:53):

    I'll just ask you to move a bit closer to your microphone so we can hear your dulcet tones. Okay. That's much better. You're, that's, your dulcet tones, your acting chops. Yes. Uh, we're gonna tap into what was Jackie in that summer?

    Rick (04:08):

    Oh, gosh. Uh, I remember she was in the Comedy of Errors, which I was in, uh, it, it was staged, Robin Phillips staged it as a Western, and there was a huge uh, covered wagon at Center Stage. And Jackie was, I forget the part she played, but she just, she just fell into that, that category beautifully as kind of a Mammy Yokum type character. And, uh, was a great production. I was teamed with Bernie Hopkins and we were the Romeo, the Twins Romeo. And, uh, that, that's why, that's how Robin hired me, because I was living in Toronto looking for work. And I was in a little review at the Theater in the Dell, which is long gone. And, uh, Robin came to see the show and saw me and said, He looks an awful lot like Bernie Hopkins and maybe he'll be good as one of the Romeos. And I auditioned for him. And I, you know, it's like one of those, that was one of the big things that changed the course of my life.

    Craig (05:10):

    You were also in The Tempest?

    Rick (05:12):

    I was in The Tempest. I played Stefano the Drunk, uh, with Barry McGregor as Trinculo, and of course the Great William Hutt as Prospero and Marty Meridan as Miranda. It was a great, great production.

    Craig (05:27):

    And what did you think of my loss of innocence that I described earlier? Did you take part in any of those hijinks?

    Rick (05:33):

    Never. Uh, and that's my story. No, actually, uh, I probably didn't cuz at that time I was, we were, I was one of the few men that had a family. Uh, everyone else was kind of single and on the run and, and crazy and wild. And I had to go home and, and be with my wife and children.

    Craig (05:51):

    It was kind of a sweet time at Stratford because they hired, uh, students to work as, as ushers. Yeah. And I think it was, for me, it was a great experience because I fell in love with theater, not as a profession, but as an appreciative member of, of the audience. But, uh, we were required to sit in the seats or on the steps to monitor the audience mm-hmm. <affirmative> from doing anything crazy or bold. I'm not sure what audience members might do. They might rush the stage or something, but we had to monitor, I guess, the safety, I guess, of the patrons. Yeah. So we had to sit on the steps in the balcony or even in the, uh, in the orchestra and watching the play. And, and you're forced to listen to the play over and over again. So it just burns in your memory.

    Rick (06:38):

    Yeah, of course. It was the joy for you, wasn't it? Hearing it over and over. It depends on the show, you know. Um, these were some good shows, uh, comedies, um, tragedies. Uh, I think that was one of the high points of the festival back then.

    Craig (06:52):

    Yeah. Was that, was Peter Houston off, uh, around at that time?

    Rick (06:56):

    It was a little after I was there. He played King Lear a little after. But, uh, reports of of his being at Stratford were, were numerous. And they, he was such an incredible talent. And I remember somebody told me that, uh, he would speak French to the French speaking people. He, he was being measured for his costume by, I believe, an Italian tailor. And he started speaking Italian to him, German to the chef. I mean, he was an incredible intellect and bon vivant.

    Craig (07:31):

    So I alluded, uh, in the opening, uh, about a connection to Charles Schultz and Peanuts and, and Charlie Brown. You really have Charlie Brown and Charles Schultz to thank for landing you in Stratford, right?

    Rick (07:45):

    I sure do. Um, gosh, it started in New York. I was, uh, living on the Lower East Side in the terrible, terrible neighborhood. <laugh> gunshots in the night were a frequency. And I was selling Christmas cards over the phone. And, uh, back then I had a phone service that took my messages. And one lunch at the Christmas card place, I called my service and they said, Oh, uh, the Peanuts company would like you to audition for a role. So I went down to the, uh, St. Mark's place, which is where the original off Broadway Charlie Brown was playing. And, and I auditioned with, uh, six other guys. I, it was for the general understudy in the Chicago production, which was just opening, They were actually taking the Strat, the, uh, Toronto cast of You’re a Good Man Charlie Brown, moving them to Chicago, but the understudy didn't wanna go, so they had to hire a new one.

    Rick (08:44):

    So, uh, you know, I auditioned, the guy said, How would you like to go to Chicago? And I said, Oh, gosh. Yeah, when? He said, tonight, <laugh>. So I, I flew to Chicago, I just, I, you know, I told, I told my landlord to hold my stuff. Uh, God, it was a schmozzle. Uh, got on a plane, flew to Chicago. Um, Marvin Krause, who was quite a Broadway personality at that time, uh, met me and drove me to the hotel Sylvia in Chicago, a very kind of down and out. And I was exhausted cuz I had been up for like 48 hours. And I got to the hotel room and I just kind of collapsed. And of course I couldn't fall asleep. So they had a TV there where you could put a quarter in for 15 or half an hour. So I put a quarter in it and I was watching The Tonight Show, and I was sort of drifting off hoping the TV would shut off and it wouldn't shut off.

    Rick (09:43):

    It went on all night long. I could not turn it off. Got up in the morning, went to the, uh, Civic theater, which is where the show was playing for my first meeting with the cast. And I was in the elevator going up and this woman walked in, in a, in a raccoon coat, hair all akimbo, cuz it was a very windy corner in Chicago. And she said, God, I hate this country. <laugh> being an American, I, I thought, Well, too bad, you know, why don’t you go home. But that turned out to be my wife, uh, Kathy Wallace, then, who played Lucy. And, uh, I was the general understudy and we soon hit it off. And, uh, that was, uh, gosh, a long time ago. 50, over 50 years.

    Craig (10:30):

    And then you ended up taking on the lead role of Charlie Brown in the touring production, right?

    Rick (10:36):

    Yes. It seemed every time I went on with, as one of the characters, as an understudy, there was somebody from the New York office in the audience. And when, uh, Bob Ard, who was playing Charlie Brown in the national company decided to step away. They needed it. Charlie Brown and everyone in the office said, Well, there's that guy in Chicago, we've seen him do quite a few roles, He's very good. And so they asked me if I'd like to go and the, uh, they said, We'd like you to join the national company, and the first stop is Honolulu, Hawaii. And I said, Oh, okay. I'll go. And, uh, so Kathy and I had to part, uh, and it was, it was a sad parting. I never, I never, I remember the first stop before Honolulu was into Indianapolis and I was in my hotel room going, What have I done? You know, because I obviously had fallen deeply in love. And, uh, but we kept in touch. And, uh, eventually Kathy went back to school after the Chicago, uh, show closed and we kept communicating. And apparently she would, or occasionally she would fly down to some of the cities that I was appearing in and we would visit. And, and then, uh, I think it was in Milwaukee, uh, I popped the question over the phone and, uh, you know, she said, Yes,

    Craig (11:57):

    In your Charlie Brown voice, What's the Charlie Brown voice?

    Rick (12:01):

    Uh, let's see if I can, It's, it's, uh, a little, a lot of water under the bridge since I played it. But, uh, the opening segment, Lucy said, I wouldn't worry about you, Charlie Brown. After all, psychologists say that a person's personality isn't really established until they are at least five years old. And Charlie Brown says, But I am five. I'm more than five. And Lucy says, Oh, well, that's the way it goes,

    Craig (12:30):

    <laugh>. Now did you ever play opposite your wife, uh, on stage together?

    Rick (12:34):

    Oh, yes. Yes. Cuz after the national, uh, after the national company closed, and Kathy was, and we were married, we were living in Hartford, Connecticut.

    Craig (12:44):

    Where you're from originally.

    Rick (12:46):

    Where I'm from. Yeah. Well, I was, I'm from Plainville, Connecticut. But, uh, I got a job on the newspaper in the Hartford Times in Hartford, Connecticut, which is now a defunct newspaper. And Kathy was with me, and we, we lived in this awful apartment, and she was a <laugh>, she was a dental assistant because her father was a dentist and had trained her to be in the dental assistant. And it was a summer, and we were on the top floor of this three story apartment building, and it was hotter than hell. And we used to sit in front of the air conditioner at night and go, How do we get outta here? And so we went to New York, uh, to see some shows, and we ran into the famous Marvin Crouse, who was a producer then. And he said, Oh, they're looking for somebody for the bus and truck tour of Charlie Brown. Are you guys interested? We said, Yes! And now the the national company, we flew everywhere. That was the first class. The bus and truck is just what it says. The cast travels in a bus, the scenes travel in a truck and we tour it all over the United States on a, on a bus.

    Craig (13:53):

    So you saw America, more than you probably did even before you were an actor. You got to know your own country.

    Rick (13:59):

    Yeah, I I think every state we, I'm sure we visited every state. Um, most of the major cities, uh, it was, it was an eye opening experience. Um, gosh, you know, we, we, we played Memphis, Tennessee. We played, uh, Houston. We got a tour of the, the NASA Space Center in, in, uh, in Houston, uh, Dallas. And this is an interesting story, my friend, I had a friend in Plainville, Connecticut who moved to Dallas, and he took us on this tour, and we were driving around, we came down this highway and he said, Does this place look familiar? And I said, No, not really. And he said, Look behind you. And I looked behind me and there was the Texas Book School depository where, uh, JFK was shot. And that, seeing things like that was amazing.

    Craig (14:53):

    Now, uh, in Charlie Brown, uh, Lucy has a crush on Schroeder. Did you find it weird that Lucy, and you actually hit it off on stage? Because Lucy does, has no interest in Charlie Brown

    Rick (15:06):

    Till the very end she comes at, at, you know, you're true. She, she, just, as a matter of fact, when we got married, when we announced our marriage, Charles Schultz sent us a letter saying, Now, Lucy, don't you be too crabby and Charlie, don't you be too wishy washy <laugh>. But at the very end of the show, and it brought tears almost universally wherever we played, Charlie Brown is just sitting alone on the stage, and Lucy comes up to him and he looks like gonna hit me or what. And she sticks out her hand and she says, You're a good man, Charlie Brown. And, you know, it's a tear. It's a wonderful kind of, you know, conclusion.

    Craig (15:46):

    And a lot of things from, uh, Charles Schultz's work, not just in the the musical, but in the comic strip, have stuck in society, that phrase, You're a good man, Charlie Brown has stuck, things like good grief. Yeah. I can't remember what else.

    Rick (15:58):

    Happiness is a warm puppy.

    Craig (16:00):

    That's right.

    Rick (16:00):

    Yeah. Uh, Charles Sch, I met Charles Schultz, uh, we were in Los Angeles, and I was in a bookstore and, uh, going, you know, looking for plays and books and stuff. And I turned around and there's, you know, at the end of the aisle was Charlie, was Charles Schultz, and this is how insecure I was as an actor. I said, Should I go over and introduce myself or should I, what if he doesn't think I'm the right Charlie Brown? And he calls the office and I got fired. <laugh>. So I swallowed my pride, and I went over and said, Mr. Schultz, I'm, you know, Richard Whelan and I am playing Charlie Brown in the, in the road company of You're a good man, Charlie Brown. He, I'll tell you, he couldn't have been nicer. He was actually with Bill Melendez, who was, I believe the director of all the cartoon, you know, the, the animated. And unfortunately, we were all packed and ready to go back, ready to go back to Las Vegas, where our show was playing. And he invited me out to the studio to, to watch them. They were filming a new episode, and I, I just kicked myself that I couldn't do it, but wow. I said, I'm sorry, but, you know, um, I'm off to, uh, Las Vegas, but I'd love to.

    Craig (17:14):

    Um, and Peanuts like Charles Schultz, uh, he toyed with different spirituality and philosophy. He was a Christian. Uh, earlier on. And then he became a humanist more, accepting it. He used, uh, Peanuts to provide some insight and lessons into how we should be as, as people, I think.

    Rick (17:35):

    Yes. He had a wonderful outlook on life. Um, he started out, you know, those match book covers, and it's a draw me and win an art scholarship. Well, he worked for that company in Minneapolis, and then he started drawing cartoons, which I, I think, uh, the original title of the cartoon was Little Folks. And very, very dissimilar to what we know now is Charlie Brown. But in this office where he was working in the artist school, all of his friends, one of them being a guy named Charlie Brown, a woman named Frida, uh, several other names, you know, and we met them all, Uh, when we were playing Minneapolis, they, they all took us out to dinner. And it was, it was wonderful. But they were all based on actual real people. And I got to know Charlie, the original Charlie Brown quite well, and he was Charlie Brown, you know, he was, uh, he told me about this time he was visiting Charles Schultz in Los Angeles, and he was staying at this really cheap hotel, and he didn't want Charles Schultz to know he was staying at this. So he was being driven home by Charles Schultz. He said, Oh, we could just drop me off at the corner. And he got out of the car and was gonna walk to his cheap hotel, and he leaned down to say goodbye to Charles Schultz, and he hit his head on the rear view mirror <laugh>. And it, you know, it was just a, a typical Charlie Brown thing. I mean, he was,

    Craig (19:04):

    Well, the work of Charles Schultz is timeless, we still watch the, uh, it's a Charlie Brown Christmas. Oh, absolutely. And it just seems to have that, uh, piece of nostalgia that we're all longing for these days.

    Rick (19:16):

    Yeah, yeah. And the wisdom of his, of his script, of his stories, which the, the show, You're a good man. Charlie Brown is based mostly on his earlier, earlier and the philosophy of, uh, one of my favorite, we call them Blackouts, but Patty, who is kind of this very, she's concerned with her looks and she's, you know, always tying her jump rope around her, you know. And Linus, who's a bit of a philosopher, is standing there saying, You know, Patty, life is so strange. And he goes on and on and, you know, we're just one, one small.in this universe, and what do we, what do we know about? And I can't remember the exact line, but he goes on and on on this philosophy tangent. What do you think, Patty? And she says, We had spaghetti at our house three times last week, <laugh>. Which is that beautiful kind of, if you talk to some people and they just don't get what you're saying,

    (20:14):

    You're listening to the Stratford Slice with Craig Thompson. Check out our website, thestratfordslice.com, and be sure to subscribe. And now back to the show,

    Craig (20:26):

    I did a documentary a number of years ago, 20 years ago, I guess, on, um, the Canadian War Hero, Billy Bishop. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And when we were making that, I was making it with my friend Diana Bishop, who is Billy Bishop's granddaughter. And many people were saying, Oh, uh, well, um, when Snoopy, uh, is fighting the Red Barron, uh, could it be Billy Bishop <laugh>? But, uh, because the Red Baron, uh, was representing Baron Von Rick Tophen. Yes. Um, who, uh, nobody's sure for, uh, Billy Bishop had many, uh, sorts, and he might have come into contact, but I believe it was the Canadian fighter pilot, Arthur Brown, who was credited for shooting, uh, down, uh, the Red Barron. Yeah. And he, it affected him all of his life. Uh, it was a negative thing for him. Sure. He, he killed another man. Sure. He killed a German hero. But what do you think about that, that kind of stands out with what Charles Schultz did? The Snoopy versus the Red Barron, uh, is a common thing that keeps coming back.

    Rick (21:27):

    Yeah. Um, he used the, he used the, the cartoon to kind of comment on the morality of life. Um, I read somewhere that he, he had been kind of criticized for not having, uh, a black character, a young black boy character. And he kind of bristled at that suggestion, because, you know, this is my cartoon strip and I'll do what I want with it. But eventually he did, um, introduce a, a black young character to the script. And I think, you know, he, he didn't want be forced, He didn't want to be a token character, but then he saw the, the wisdom of inclusion, and he, you know, he, he, he decided to include a black character.

    Craig (22:12):

    So then you came back, uh, to Toronto and you were telling the story earlier about, uh, being in, uh, production at the theater in the Dell at Robin Phillips. What was that production and how did that all lead you on a path to Stratford?

    Rick (22:26):

    Well, uh, the theater in the Dell was a little cabaret near the University Hospital, and it was a wonderful little, and there was a show in New York called, What's a Nice Country Like you doing in a state like this? Which was during the Nixon era, which was, it was a big kind of, uh, critique of American politics, and it was very successful. And they decided to open a Toronto production, and I auditioned, and I got the part, and so did Andrea Martin, and so did Martin Short and Clo Tessier and, uh, several other people. And, uh, it was blackouts. It was, uh, very, very funny stuff. Uh, slightly controversial, but, you know, uh, it ran close to a year, maybe year and a half. Uh, but as I say, when Robin Phillips came, he was doing this countrywide tour

    Craig (23:18):

    Talent search.

    Rick (23:18):

    Yeah. And he came to, I mean, he went everywhere to see all sorts of people. And he came to theater in the Dell, saw the show, and as I say, he was doing Comedy Bears, and Bernie Hopkins was gonna be one of the, And I looked a bit like Bernie. I was short and a, a bit stocky. And so he asked me to come and audition.

    Craig (23:40):

    And this was in the era of GodSpell and Hairspray. So people were pushing boundaries, uh, Yeah. At, uh, Cabarets and things like that.

    Rick (23:47):

    Very much so. And, uh, we had a great, uh, a great cast. Well, I mean, my gosh, Andrea Martin and Martin Short, myself, Trudy Desmond was also a wonderful jazz singer. And Clo Tessier, who very sadly passed away from aids not too long after I knew him, he was in a production of, uh, Chorus Line in Los Angeles. And, and he, I believe that's when he got sick and he passed away out there. Uh, but it was extremely popular. Uh, people seemed, even though it was a, as an American show, I think the Canadians identified with that kind of Nixon political, you know, which ended badly for Nixon, of course, uh, duplicity and dishonesty. And they, they made that show run, uh, you know,

    Craig (24:38):

    It was around the Watergate era or prior to that, I guess. Yeah. So four seasons, you did four seasons on stage at Stratford, is that right? And why did you decide that?

    Rick (24:50):

    Uh, I lost my nerve. Um, happens, you know, you're young and fearless and you, you go on stage and you don't really think about what horrible things could happen. And suddenly those horrible things, you know, like forgetting lines and missing cues and, you know, uh, it wore on me. And, uh, I just, I didn't enjoy performing anymore.

    Craig (25:15):

    Stage fright.

    Rick (25:16):

    Stage fright, right. Yeah, absolutely. I would have huge panic attacks before going on stage. Um, same thing happened. I mean, I'm not equating myself with Richard Manette, but the same thing happened with Richard Minnet. The same thing happened with Lawrence. Olivia couldn't perform because of that absolute terror of going on stage. Cuz it is frightening.

    Craig (25:37):

    Well, I know a lot of actors who have to psych themselves up and go before they go on stage and exercise to block everything else out so they can focus. Yeah. And I know other actors who wake up in the middle of the night thinking they've missed their cue. So what is the intensity of going on stage that people in the audience really don't understand that an actor must, um, prepare to prevent that from happening?

    Rick (26:05):

    I think it's the ultimate vulnerability of being out there on your own with nothing but the lines in your head. And, you know, the, the moves that you must do. And as I say, when you're young, you're young and brave, but when you get old, you get older, you get kind of, uh, gee, do I really remember what I'm supposed to say? I remember there's a wonderful actor, was a wonderful actor with the festival. Uh, back in the day, Don Lewis, uh, who was a good friend of mine, his stage name was Lewis Gordon. And I mean, he played the biggest roles. He, he understood he'd, King Lear. He, he played, you know, he was in the festival for years. And I remember one time just before the curtain went up, he was running around, He had a big part, I forget what the play was, but he was running around saying, What's my first line? What's my first line? You know, it's like that, it's almost a subconscious, you're trying to work against yourself. But, uh, Judy Dench I read somewhere also has terrible stage fright, but she somehow used it. Um, but she said she confessed that when she goes to the first rehearsal, her purse and coat, she will put in a chair by the door in case she has to run out, you know, in case she has a terrible panic attack and has to run out, she can grab her purse and coat on the way out.

    Craig (27:25):

    So those who do it well, what do you think their key to success is on stage? Or does everybody have a very different approach depending on their own personality?

    Rick (27:33):

    I think it's confidence. I think the people who, you know, um, I know that, that, that Maggie Smith and Brian Bedford, whom I I've worked with, uh, got a little, Brian, not so much, but Maggie would, would get very, very nervous. But she used it, she used that energy to spike her performance. Um, I remember once I was standing in the wings watching her, and she went up, which means she forgot her lines. And so she started making up stuff, but in iambic pentameter, which only Maggie Smith could do, and she came off stage, like, and she was like, you know, and she looked at me and she said, What the hell did I say out there, <laugh>? But, you know, it didn't bother. I mean, it didn't prevent her from going out again and doing the same thing.

    Craig (28:23):

    So you opted to stay in Stratford. And you mentioned earlier you were working for a newspaper in, in Hartford. So what did you end up, uh, um, pursuing after leaving the, the company? Well,

    Rick (28:34):

    I was, I was ill-equipped to do a lot most things, except I was a writer and I had worked for newspapers. So I went to the local newspaper, the Beacon Herald, and they had a part-time position. Uh, the Rotary hockey games on the weekend had to be reported on. So I would, uh, come in Sunday night and sit down at the computer and

    Craig (28:58):

    Typewriter.

    Rick (29:00):

    Uh,

    Craig (29:00):

    It wouldn't have been computers back then, would it?

    Rick (29:02):

    Yes. I think we very, very, you know, I really forget It might have been typewriters. Yes. I think it was typewriter

    Craig (29:08):

    Because I worked there as a summer student in 1980 or 81. Yeah. The year, whatever year Terry Fox came through Stratford. Yeah. I forget what year that was. Uh, but, uh, you were there and I think you, when you were there, we were all on typewriters. I think they were electric typewriters.

    Rick (29:26):

    Yes. The IBM Electric's, not that I remember.

    Craig (29:29):

    That's right. And you were the wire editor at the time?

    Rick (29:32):

    Yeah, well, before that I was the Rotary Hockey reporter, and then, uh, somebody, one of the sports guys left, and they asked me if I'd like to be a sports writer, and I'm a sports fan, but I'm certainly not a sports authority, but I needed a job. So I said, Yeah, yeah, I'll be the sports writer. And then, um, I was a sports writer for a couple of years, and then Jack Ross, who was the wire editor, retired, and they said, Would you like to be the wire editor? And I said, In many respects, John Weel, who was the managing editor then, saved my bacon, because I could have very easily, you know, gone on the breadline because there wasn't a lot I could do. Uh, you know, cause I'd been an actor since I was like 18 years old. So they saved my life.

    Craig (30:22):

    One act Wonder

    Rick (30:24):

    Oh, one, one Act one, one pony, one,

    Craig (30:27):

    One trick pony. That's what I was trying to say.

    Rick (30:29):

    Yeah. Yeah. That's it. That's it.

    Craig (30:30):

    What I remember about the Beacon Herald, I mean, it was a great place for me because I ultimately became a, a journalist and writer myself. But what I remember about that time is that every single person smoked in the newsroom. Yes. And you'd walk into the newsroom in a cloud of smoke, and I can't remember who it was, but Al Abus, I think, uh, was a reporter at the time. Yeah. And we used to bring in, um, scrapers, uh, like he'd put on drywall. Yeah. And once or twice a month, you would scrape the yellow film off the, the windows and it coated the typewriters

    Rick (31:03):

    Yeah, that's right. That's right. I remember, uh, you know, occasionally the, one of the reporters would, would have like a big huge ashtray of butts and ash, and he would wrap it up in a piece of paper and throw it in the trash I mean, yeah, everyone smoked,

    Craig (31:22):

    But I didn't get the bug. Everybody in journalism at that that time was hard drinking and hard smoking. In fact, when I went to journalism school, I won't mention the professor's name, but he was a hard bitten journalist from the Toronto Star who taught part-time at Ryerson. And he would conduct his first class at the Imperial Public Library, <laugh>, which was the pub, uh, down the road. So us newbies, you know, 19 or 20 year old, first year journalism students would be, uh, introduced to journalism over some drinks, uh, with the professor.

    Rick (31:57):

    It's a long, long heritage of, of drinking and smoking. And I like, you know, Jimmy Breslin, the, the famous New York Post, or the New York Daily News writer. He was wonderful and novelist. Uh, he was just the typical hard bitten. You know, I remember, uh, when he went to cover the Kennedy assassination, he interviewed the man who dug the grave, and he had that kind of, you know, offbeat. But this is a story about him. Um, I was on a children's theater tour for about three months, and I came back to the city and, and, you know, on the road for three months, I wore a dirty pair of jeans, a a shirt, a a lumber jacket. I was, I looked a mess. But the bus dropped me off at the middle of Times Square. And I looked around and I needed, I needed a meal and a drink.

    Rick (32:55):

    So there was a, I believe the name of the, the, the restaurant was Dinty Moore’s. They were famous. They put their Dinty Moore's stew in cans and sold it. But I went into Denting Moores the minute I walked in, I said, This place is classy. I shouldn't be here. But I sat at the bar and the bartender, you know, said, What do you want? And I, I, I think I ordered a beer. And he said, Okay, but I'll give you the beer. But after, you're gonna have to leave because you don't have the right clothes. Uh, and the guy down to the end of the bar said, Hey, he's a working man. He's wearing working man clothes. You let him have whatever he wants and I'll pay for it. And it was Jimmy Breslin. Wow. You know, and it was like <laugh>, I could have gone over and kissed him, but, you know, he was, he made me feel so welcome and, you know, yeah. I'm a working man by God.

    Craig (33:48):

    That reminds me of a story, uh, uh, about William Shatner. I worked with William Shatner on a number of films. And we were in New York, um, on the July 4th holiday weekend, uh, I can't remember what year, but a long time ago. It was like 104 degrees. And, uh, we were, um, doing a film called, uh, The Captains, which you can see a poster up on our, our Wall. And you see Bill sitting in a box, and I'll tell you the story about Bill in a Box, because he was going to be interviewing Kate Mulgrew, who played, um, Captain Janeway on another iteration of, uh, of Star Trek. And, uh, he was telling us this story about he started off at Stratford and went to New York and got his big break on, on Broadway. He was a struggling actor. And when he was in, uh, a Broadway show, he was going to, I guess the famous restaurant, Sardis.

    Craig (34:39):

    Right. It's a steakhouse. And, um, he encountered a man, homeless man sitting in a box outside of Sardis. And he felt sorry for the guy. And, uh, he said, what the homeless man said, you know, Can you get me something, uh, when you go into the restaurant? And uh, Bill said, What would you like? He said, I'd like a steak. And so Bill, uh, went in and bought the man a steak. And he came out and he said, Oh, I wanted medium rare <laugh>. So Bill was remembering this story. So he was wearing this three piece suit in 104 degrees temperatures. And he said, I'm gonna be that homeless guy and I'm gonna sit in the box and jump out and surprise Kate Mulgrew, <laugh> and Kate Mulgrew didn't know this was being set up cuz we filmed it spontaneously. But the biggest challenge of that was it was July 4th holiday weekend, everything was closed and we had to send our production assistant around Manhattan looking for a box that might have held a stove or a refrigerator

    Rick (35:42):

    Big enough for William Shatner.

    Craig (35:43):

    Yeah. And so that's, uh, uh, that, that I remember that story.

    Rick (35:48):

    Uh, there's, well, this whole story about this, this street person is begging for, um, for money. And, uh, he, the very well dressed man passes by and the guy says, Sir, could you help me have a little change? And he said, I'm sorry. He said, uh, business is way down and I, I just can't afford it. And, um, man, the homeless man look at him and said, So you're having a bad year and I should suffer <laugh>

    Craig (36:17):

    Getting back to the Beacon Herald, uh, for a moment, we should remind everybody that that was probably one of the great newspapers, independent newspapers in Canada at the time. Absolutely. Up there with the Kingston Week Standard and, uh, number of other papers

    Rick (36:34):

    Owen Sound, I believe.

    Craig (36:35):

    Yeah. Papers that were staunchly independent family run newspapers. Yeah. And I think actually Kingston Week standard was the second last, because the family sold out there and the Beacon Herald was probably the last, uh, family owned newspaper in Ontario. They held out. Yeah.

    Rick (36:54):

    I actually, it's funny cuz I, I, I turned to playwriting after, uh, leaving the stage and I wrote a play once called Kindred Spirits, which dealt with the death of the local newspaper because, um, that was an important reflection of the community because I remember I interviewed a woman, um, Marion Duke, who was the editor of the Listowel Banner, and she was retiring and she was bemoaning the same fate of the local newspaper. She said, because, you know, the eyes of the community used to be these, these local farm women who had an, you know, takes a village to raise a child. They had their eye on the community and they would report the intricacies of what was happening in the community. But she said that ended when all the women went to work, uh, you know, for a job. And there's a, there's all over North America, probably all over the world. There's the death of the local newspaper, the local voice, the independent voice, uh, which is really a sad commentary about, you know, uh, journalism. And they've all become sort of Mac paper with puzzles and contests and, but digging deep into the community, uh, or reflecting the troubles of the community, that just doesn't happen anymore in, in, in papers.

    Craig (38:15):

    And we're turning our attention to social media. We're not getting the getting the truth, you know, witness what's going on

    Rick (38:21):

    All the, with social media. Yeah. There's absolutely no confirming if the voice is, is accurate or not. Yeah. Whereas newspapers, you trusted a newspaper, you know, you somebody, uh, this is an old story. The, the Beacon Herald, when they landed on the moon, somebody wrote the Beacon and said, you know, I thought all of this was staged. I didn't believe that it landed on the moon until I read it in the beacon, and then I believed it. Wow. And that kind of readership, you know, devotion is kind of missing today.

    Craig (38:57):

    And you and I have talked a lot, uh, about your perspective on the country of your birth, because there's been a lot of tumult in the United States over the last eight to 10 years. Uh, what do you see happening there? I've, I've just finished reading a book by the journalist Timothy Snyder called On Tyranny. And his argument is that if we're not careful, um, we're slipping into a tyrannical age where authoritarianism, uh, if it already hasn't taken hold, uh, will take hold and will be duped into following, you know, the next irrational, uh, leader who wants to take us down a certain direction. What do you see happening in your, are we in danger of living next to an authoritarian regime?

    Rick (39:46):

    Not so much an authoritarian regime as a regime that is dictated by, um, misinformation. And, um, you know, I don't want to get too political here, but the Republican party in America has given up truth as a, as a weapon. And there was a woman this morning on television, uh, she was a senator of state, senator from Michigan, and one of her opponents accused her of being pro pedophilia, trying to sexualize kindergarten students. And this was just a total, total make. She made it up. And this woman who was accused addressed the Senate the next day, and it was a wonderful speech. I'm sure you can find it on YouTube, but she said, I am a mother, I am a citizen, I am a straight woman with children. And, you know, all of these other things are lies, but it's time we start, we stop marginalizing people who are different. And the Republican Party seems to, seems to be doing that. And I, I just, I don't understand, you know, everyone's predicting that 20 20, 22 middle elections, the Republicans are gonna take a charge of the Senate and the House of Representatives, and they very well might. But, uh, I'm afraid if that happens, we're one step closer to, uh, you know, unfortunate circumstances.

    Craig (41:12):

    But America was established on conflict and it has always had this two-sided coin, I suppose. Do you think conflict is a natural part of the American psyche?

    Rick (41:24):

    Uh, you're right in that it was, it was founded on conflict on different voices, but they were all truthful voices in a, in a way, what you have now is your truthful voice on one side and a whack a mole philosophy of how do we, how do we stay in power on the other? For instance, the recent, uh, confirmation hearings of the first black woman to be on the Supreme Court. I mean, she is the most qualified person you could imagine. And yet the Republican party and the republican people on the, on the, on the, uh, justice, you know, who were in charge of giving her the, the okay. Brought up ridiculous accusations against her. And it was really embarrassing. I was embarrassed when I, when I watched that. Uh, they have, they've made up this total false premise that, that, I mean, QAnon, uh, you know, Democrats eat babies and that's not, you know, and people are believing this. So I fear that what people now believe, uh, there's such a low, uh, you know, such a low threshold about what people will believe. Yeah. Yeah. Those Democrats, they're eating babies right now. <laugh>, you know, it'd be amazing how many people real, you know, you know, follow that will will accept that as the truth. It's scary. It really is scary.

    Craig (42:48):

    Well, maybe things like, I'll have you sit a bit closer cuz you're, your dulcet tones are, are vanishing into our vast studio complex here. We're in the, uh, our, our beautiful downtown Stratford headquarters of Ballon Entertainment where we're doing this coffee table podcast.

    Rick (43:05):

    I love what you've done with the place <laugh>.

    Craig (43:10):

    We can't, uh, if you're listening, you can't see, but we've got, uh, posters that are various films and a few, uh, things laid around. In fact, speaking of that newspaper thing, I have the desk from the Milton, what was the newspaper name again? Milton.

    Rick (43:24):

    The Milton

    Craig (43:26):

    Banner.

    Rick (43:27):

    Oh, no, the Listowel Banner

    Craig (43:28):

    Listowel Banner. Yeah. Yeah. I have the desk, uh, newspaper editor's desk as my desk. It's like this football size from

    Rick (43:35):

    The Listowel Banner

    Craig (43:36):

    Yeah. From one of the newspapers up there. Its Perth County editors desk. Uh, it's got, uh, a leather top and it's just, it's wonderful. Yeah.

    Rick (43:44):

    Well, if it was, it's Marion Duke's desk. It's, it's it's museum worthy because she was, uh, she was a stalwart, uh, performer in the, in the local news. As a matter of fact. She had a CBC program that talked of, uh, of different happenings in rural Ontario. And, uh, she was a wonderful, wonderful woman. And, uh, you know, her, I, I'm out, she moved up north through a log cabin with no phone or no internet. She just wanted to be alone, you know, but a great, a great, uh, news woman and I wish there were more of them.

    Craig (44:20):

    So this show's called The Stratford Slice. What do you think the slice of Stratford is for you that you'd like to share? Where is our, our community going and how would you describe it? Well,

    Rick (44:31):

    I've lived in many, many cities. I've lived in, in a small town in Connecticut. I've lived in, uh, New York City for quite a few years. I've lived in Chicago. I've visited many, many big cities around the world. And when we came to Stratford, my father used to come up, Uh, my father was in finance he worked in, in business, and he actually, he was, uh, on Wall Street in 1929 when the, when the, uh, when the stock market crashed. And he took me down to New York once and down to Wall Street, and he pointed to a place on the sidewalk, and he said, I saw a guy jump out of a building and land here when I was, you know, working in the, Anyway, he would come to Stratford and, and sit in our backyard and say, This reminds me of America in the 1930s.

    Rick (45:19):

    And I understood what he said, and I don't mean in a backward sense, but there's something, there's something about Stratford that, you know, it's, it's, uh, an innocence, uh, a a place where, uh, great place to raise kids, which is why we stayed. And yet it has that effect of, you know, it had the festival. So it has that cross section of, of incredibly sophisticated culture. Restaurants, uh, you know, authors live here. The library is such a great library too, uh, it's, it's kind of a cross section of both the rural and the urban. And that's, you know,

    Craig (46:04):

    But it always hasn't been this way. I knew that when I was growing up here. I couldn't wait to get out and, and leave. And, uh, there wasn't much for young people to do when I was, uh, growing up. But, uh, and I never thought I'd move back. But here I am many years, uh, later, and you and I have bounced back and forth over the, since 1976, we, we first met and we keep encountering each other over the years, and it's seems like it's, uh, we can't escape each other.

    Rick (46:33):

    I know. And I, I wish I could find a way, but, uh, I think it stems from all those funny cigarettes you were smoking outside the stage door when I would pass you in the <laugh>.

    Craig (46:43):

    I never inhaled

    Rick (46:44):

    <laugh>. Okay, Bill.

    Craig (46:47):

    I've got some business to get outta the way because, uh, this podcast wouldn't happen without, uh, the support of, of many people. So I've got a few, as they say in radio, some liner notes to, to thank. So Stratford Slice is presented with the support of Dancing Waters Boutique featuring art, decor, and treasures from Asia.

    Rick (47:07):

    I plan to, I plan to go there and buy my wife her birthday present

    Craig (47:11):

    Lovely, uh, put Dancing Waters on your shopping list the next time you're in Stratford. And by stageview.ca, Canada's digital concert hall, coming soon to a streaming platform near you. Stratford Slice is of course, produced here in the Stratford studios of Ballinran Entertainment. Uh, we've been illuminating extraordinary stories for more than 25 years. You can visit us at ballinran.com or follow us on social media at Ballinran Entertainment. And if you want to check out more about our podcast, you can visit the Stratford Slice podcast website at thestratfordslice.ca. Rick, it's been a pleasure having this coffee chat, uh, with you and, uh, wish you all the best and, and thanks for being my guest.

    Rick (47:57):

    Well, thank you for having me. I, I enjoyed, uh, talking about life in the past. It's funny, as I was passing the Avon Theater on my way down here, there were plaques of very famous actors that have appeared there, and most of them are gone sadly. But, uh, also, sadly, most of them I work with <laugh>. So it was a, a little, a little nostalgia for me

    Craig (48:21):

    Well, let's end on a, on a, on a funny note. Is it Ahvon or Ayvon?

    Rick (48:26):

    I don't know. You know, there's an Avon, Connecticut where I once lived when I was a little boy, but I think Avon is here is the a Avon and Stratford,

    Craig (48:37):

    But in the UK at Stratford upon Avon.

    Rick (48:39):

    Is it?

    Craig (48:40):

    I believe so.

    Rick (48:41):

    Well, I'll be damned.

    Craig (48:43):

    And whenever I hear the Avon, I always think of the Avon lady Dingdong at your, at your door. So I, I, I go with a Avon, but a lot of people, uh,

    Rick (48:51):

    Avon is, is kind of, well, welcome to a Avon, but Avon is classier, Avon.

    Craig (48:57):

    It's like, is it tomato or tomato? Potato or potato?

    Rick (49:01):

    Craig, let's call the whole thing off, <laugh>.

    Craig (49:03):

    Thanks, Rick.

    (49:05):

    You've been listening to the Stratford Slice with Craig Thompson. For more episodes, check out our website, thestratfordslice.com, and be sure to subscribe. The Stratford slice is produced by Ballinran Entertainment, Southwestern Ontario's number one digital media studio. If you have a great story to tell and want to be on the podcast, please reach out to us through our website, thestratfordslice.com.

  • Speaker 1 (00:00):

    The following is a podcast from Be and Ray Entertainment.

    Speaker 2 (00:06):

    Hello, it's Craig Thompson and this is the Stratford Slice. Joining me in studio today is the internationally renowned indigenous visual artist and Stratford treasure Maxine Noel. Just a few doors up the street from our studio on Downey Street. And Stratford is the great steakhouse in, in fosters and adoring The walls of Fosters is the beautiful illuminated, uh, artwork of Maxine Noel. And if you saunter a few blocks up Downey Street towards Ontario Street, there is gallery in which also includes many, many renowned artists from indigenous cultures across Canada, but specifically, uh, Maxine Noel. Maxine, I've been so excited to meet you for such a long time. Thank you for making the time and thank you for coming in.

    Speaker 3 (01:15):

    Thank you for having me.

    Speaker 2 (01:17):

    We've just witnessed, uh, uh, a major event in Canada. The Pope has come to Canada and left where he came and, uh, um, issued an apology for residential schools, traveled to Edmonton e Callit, Quebec City. Um, we should just start off by talking about that. What was your feeling? Uh, cuz there's been a lot of debate over what he should or shouldn't have done. And did he go far enough? What, what are your thoughts on, uh, on that?

    Speaker 3 (01:49):

    I've had many mixed thoughts about it. Um, I know that a lot of people reacted differently, different, even, you know, the boarding school, uh, survivors have reacted many different ways. Uh, personally, I, uh, feel that a lot of the people <laugh>, who I guess were the perpetrators <laugh> of the boarding schools, um, have long, they've passed away a long time ago, you know, And yes, I know I was not in a Catholic, um, run boarding school. I was with, uh, the, actually one of the other churches and I was there for almost 10 years. And I don't talk too much about it, but my opinion about the Pope being in Canada, um, first of all, the only, I suppose opinion I can give on that was that, uh, he was, he was given a sue war bonnet. Now those amazing headdress are given or are created and you have to earn every feather. So how do people, I, I just didn't think that was appropriate. It bothered me, <laugh>, and I don't know, I, I, there's not much I wanna say about it. It's what's done's done and it's just reopening moons.

    Speaker 2 (03:14):

    And for you personally, as a residential or boarding school survivor, was art one of the ways that you, uh, embraced and, and celebrated your culture? How was the art? How, what did

    Speaker 3 (03:28):

    Art? Art is something I've done from the time I was as far back as I can remember, art has been something that, that I've always done. Uh, boarding school, yes, I did a lot of art. It was an escapism, I guess. So it was the library <laugh>, I think I read every geographical magazine they had there, <laugh> over the years. And I've got to see the world through magazines, but I kept my sanity and I was strong and survived. It's all I wanna say about it.

    Speaker 2 (04:00):

    And you're a prairie girl originally. Tell us a little bit about your roots. You're from a, the Sue culture, right?

    Speaker 3 (04:06):

    Uh, yes, I am. Uh, it always sounds like a history story, and in fact it is. I guess Sitting Bowl came to Canada twice. He thought the queen mother would allow him to live in peace. And some of the people came up, uh, from the US after little Big Horn. And there are reserves in southwestern Manitoba in the corner next to North Dakota and southeastern Saskatchewan are some very tiny reserves. Uh, we don't have status in Canada. We given these posted sized little resorts to live on. And so many of us have been born in Canada, but there are very few of us in, even in Ontario, unless they're a relative. So, But yeah, I'm very proud of my heritage. It was a very strong, very strong, strong, powerful people. A warrior tribe.

    Speaker 2 (05:01):

    And art has not been your only source of income. You had a day job or a desk job for a while as you did art on the side. When did, when did you sort of be able to make the leap to professional full-time art?

    Speaker 3 (05:14):

    Actually, interesting question because I can never remember when I didn't do art and it was something that you didn't, I never thought as a possibility to, uh, to base a career on. I think I thought I should be everything else. And, uh, I worked for, uh, Toronto lawyers actually for many, many years. Bay Street lawyers. Um, I worked for lawyers in Edmonton in Northern Ontario. Uh, some have remained very good friends of mine and collectors <laugh>. Um, I've done many things. I did research for, uh, native inmates all over Ontario to, uh, support a, uh, to support a program called the Inmate Liaison Program. So if I've ever asked, have I been to jail? I can say all of them. <laugh>,

    Speaker 2 (06:03):

    You've also used your art, I should say. Your art to me, uh, strikes me as very hopeful and optimistic. Can you tell me how you get to that point when it's based on trauma and life experience that may be, uh, negative? How do you turn that into hope and, and positive feelings?

    Speaker 3 (06:25):

    Um, I guess my, my art is, is, uh, I like I'm very much, uh, I lean to the linear. Lauren Harris is always somebody I admired. I lean to the linear and, and to me the motion and lines can create feelings and, and I, I use it to create, uh, you know, I want people to understand there's an incredible beauty to nature and <laugh>. Once you get their attention with fine art, <laugh> with art, then you can deliver messages through it. And that's what I do. I support, uh, very much the, uh, the environment. I, I feel that, uh, our focus has to be there. We're losing the earth and each other and all of that. And so through my art I try, you know, this is what I wanna, but I don't wanna do it in your face cuz that never accomplishes anything, you know, never approach a meeting with boxing gloves on. And, uh, so I use my art in, in a gentle way and it seems to be working very well in that direction.

    Speaker 2 (07:31):

    Why do you think it's taken so long for settler culture and indigenous culture to recognize the, uh, uh, the sins of the past and come together? Is it, is there a positive in that, in that climate change is now an urgent, urgent, uh, matter that we must all work together on? How, why do you think it's taken so long to get to this point? Because

    Speaker 3 (07:53):

    People don't understand that we're all something of, we're all a part of everything. Cuz at one point this little blue marble was liquid, and so over the years, things started farming da da da. So wouldn't you say that everything is a part of everything and we're the ones destroying everything, you know? So, cuz I know people sometimes don't understand native beliefs, and so I, it's my best way of telling it to them. Right At, at one point we were a part of everything and, uh, our nature we're, we're just, we've gotta save our, our planet because it doesn't matter who wins wars or what happens, our planet is, uh, being destroyed. And it's,

    Speaker 2 (08:40):

    It's emotional for, Yeah. Do you think that's the lesson that we have to come to terms with right now? We're in this period right now where we're talking about reconciliation, but the next phase is really collaboration and learning, isn't it? But we

    Speaker 3 (08:59):

    Have to, we have to work together. You know, there was, um, a movie <laugh>, I remember there was a movie out with Will Smith or infamous Will Smith, um, where aliens attack the world. And isn't it amazing how in an instant all humanity became human and worked together?

    Speaker 2 (09:21):

    And there was also that movie a few months ago, or a year ago, Don't look up, which was exactly the, the opposite with Leonard DiCaprio Were ignoring the warnings until, uh, I didn't see that too late.

    Speaker 3 (09:32):

    <laugh>. I don't know if I want to see it, but no, it's, uh, we've gotta work together and stop all the crap where our planet is in, in terrible mess. And, uh, the world is in a terrible mess. People are just, violence is, children are being killed. It's unbelievable what's happening.

    Speaker 2 (09:53):

    Do you think your art has the power to influence and make change, or what role do you think art plays in that story?

    Speaker 3 (10:04):

    I think it helps because I, uh, when I have openings or I meet people and, and they, what they tell me what the paintings have done for them, I think it, it's, it's wonderful to hear that it is helping people, uh, change understanding things, uh, feeling better about, you know, if, if they've lost someone. I recently did a show in Edmonton, and if anybody looks online, it's the, uh, uh, the Bear Clog Gallery. And I did two paintings very subtly of, um, which people should look and see anyway, uh, one called The People of the Rainbow, and it's two women with an arc of rainbow across their gowns. I've done with, with children for all the missing children, uh, children dancing. So in a very subtle way, I relay messages.

    Speaker 2 (11:03):

    Tell us the story of how you got involved with the missing and indigenous, uh, and murdered, uh, women. What the, what role art played in in that campaign? How did it, uh, uh, inspire people to get involved?

    Speaker 3 (11:22):

    Now, when, when that first came to the forefront, I mean, it's been out there many years and it finally, do you know what I love and hate the media, <laugh> Media? It, it does do amazing things. It, it educates a lot of people in, um, in, in very important ways that this message finally got out about all the missing women. And I thought, I have to do something for it. I have to somehow help out. So I contacted the Aid, Women's Association of Canada and Ottawa and different women's groups, and I said, Would it help if I created an image that would raise funds for them? And I created the image, uh, which, sorry, it's called not forgotten. And it took me a while to create, everybody agreed and it would be a great idea. But then I said, Now I have to create an image that will relay this in the best possible way.

    Speaker 3 (12:21):

    And so, and I had to include the women from all across Canada somehow. So I, uh, anybody who's ever seen not forgotten, uh, will, will see the image as different areas of Canada. The, uh, the moon, I approached, uh, uh, Roy Henry Vickers, the northwest coast artist, very well known man. Um, and he allowed me to use an image of the moon on, on my figure. And it's from the book called The Elders Are Watching, and it's The Moon is a Female, the moon is female. And I, I incorporated a feeling of the Inuit legend of Sedna, which if anybody looks it up, we'll realize how appropriate that is. And the different areas in Canada, all in her gown and in behind her are the shadowy outlines of the missing women. And it has, at times, has done famously in royalties. Now I, uh, have donated to the Native Women's Association, but all to also to the native women's shelter in Toronto and in, in where wherever there's a need. And the image has, I donate all my royalties in every three months. And at one three months period, it made $8,000. Wow. Donate. Incredible. So it's done very, very well. And I'm, I use my art for that. If I can help any which way, money's not important to me.

    Speaker 2 (13:55):

    Let's talk about the role of women in indigenous culture, the, the female form figures prominently in, in your art. Right. Um, I'm wondering, um, if you feel that the role of women in indigenous culture should, should change. Right.

    Speaker 3 (14:14):

    I think the role of women in <laugh> in the world is important. You know, uh, things that are happening even in the Middle East, I mean, those, those poor women have gone backwards now, you know, the,

    Speaker 2 (14:25):

    In Afghanistan?

    Speaker 3 (14:26):

    Yes, Yes. How dreadful women all over the world that I really, initially, that image was meant for women all over the world. You know, some of the dreadful things that are happening, you know, people just have got to, it's like we needed, somebody needs to hit a reset button somewhere.

    Speaker 2 (14:46):

    Well, recently we saw with the Assembly of First Nations, the conflict over, uh, oh, the female leadership and the resentment, right. That some people showed towards that. Is that, uh, uh, something that's connected to that. There's a little bit of, uh, of tension, not willing to give up the power.

    Speaker 3 (15:05):

    Well, the, the idea of the story of, uh, of course it is of course, that that is, uh, is all a part of it. It, it's, uh, we need to make change and, and could we do any worse? I think it, it has to become a time of women, but strong women, they're slowly coming to the forefront. It is happening that change changes happening. Um, and, and I'm very pleased because we need to hear from women. I mean, we are, you know, too many years we have been not considered as, you know, as an equal.

    Speaker 1 (15:42):

    You're listening to the Stratford Slice with Craig Thompson. Check out our website, the stratford slice.com and be sure to subscribe. And now back to the show.

    Speaker 2 (15:55):

    So tell me the story of your connection to Stratford. You've been here for almost 28 years now. What originally brought you here and why is this region, uh, important for you?

    Speaker 3 (16:07):

    Initially it was because of, um, the gallery owner, Earl La Boyer of Gallery in here in Stratford. She had a gallery in, uh, Kitchener Waterloo, which I could never find every time. And she had a small gallery here as well in Stratford, a tiny, tiny replace. And, uh, I always hoped she would say Stratford cuz the one in KW I could never find. Um, and I just loved the town. I loved the fact that there were many other artists here, actors, writers, and you could live quietly and, uh, not be the weirdo in town, which happens in different places. <laugh>, you could just blend in with everyone. And, and it, to me, it felt like a great place to raise my daughter, you know, And <laugh>, which worked out really well. The first time somebody discriminated against her, she had no idea what they were talking about. So it was great. And she went through gifted here in Stratford right through the university. So,

    Speaker 2 (17:06):

    And what is she doing now?

    Speaker 3 (17:07):

    Uh, she's been being involved in the business of the branch family <laugh> of which she's a part of. Yeah.

    Speaker 2 (17:14):

    That's terrific.

    Speaker 3 (17:16):

    So, no, I just love the town. I, I've my daughter, this is her hometown, really. And, uh, I don't know, we just loved it. We have so many friends here. It's a lovely place. An escape from the rest of the world, I think.

    Speaker 2 (17:31):

    And I should have mentioned off the top, you're also a companion member of the Order of Canada, and you are the co-founder of the, uh, National Aboriginal Achievement Awards

    Speaker 3 (17:44):

    Foundation

    Speaker 2 (17:45):

    Foundation, right?

    Speaker 3 (17:45):

    Well, one of the founding members, um, it was the, uh, it was the creation of a man by the name of John Kimbell, who's a Mohawk Orchestra conductor, One of my dearest, dearest friends. Um, I was at a huge native, uh, conference, I guess you would call it, in Toronto. And, uh, he <laugh> ran into John Kim Bell and he said, We've been looking for you. We'd like to know if you would be interested in being on our board. So I am was one of the founding board members, um, for almost 20 years actually. And, uh, initially it was the Canadian Native Arts Foundation, and the point was to create scholarship funds for native children or actors and artists, anybody in the arts. But then we found out there was a much bigger need. So John Kimbe, with all his brilliance, uh, integrated the National Aboriginal Achievement Foundations, and that encompassed all aspects of, of education. And we've had some wonderful, uh, people come through the foundation, uh, involved working with, uh, the cbc, uh, did a lot of our award shows, the National Aboriginal Achievement Awards. I love that time in my life, but it was taking so much away from my own, my own dealings with galleries. So

    Speaker 2 (19:07):

    It's called Inspire now?

    Speaker 3 (19:09):

    End Inspire, Yes. Um, I believe it's located on, uh, I, I'm not sure whether where it's located. I think part of it is on the Six Nations Reserve and, uh, part was part of it in Toronto. I'm not sure I've kind of lost touch with it, but I do miss, I do miss that involvement, Um, you know, working with all the incredible, incredibly talented CBC people who, uh, you know, you do a painting and they actually created on stage. Um, it was fascinating. It was an exciting time in my life.

    Speaker 2 (19:44):

    Tell me about your studio and, uh, what you see when you look out the window. Do you look out the window or are you in your own little room? What, how would you describe your artistic process? I

    Speaker 3 (19:56):

    Think you go in, the best description I ever heard was from, uh, John Penway, who was a costume set designer here for many years. And somebody asked him, What do you, what do you listen to? Or whatever, when you're painting, what do you, where do you go? What do you think? He said, You meditate, you go off somewhere. And it's true. You do, you know, you start painting and, and you're gone. You're gone for hours. I once had a roommate who, uh, came down and said, you know, it's been nighttime twice. You should for break <laugh>. Yes. So you do go off way off somewhere and then just produce you. Time just means nothing.

    Speaker 2 (20:38):

    But do you have windows overlooking the trees or the garden, or what do you see out the window when you're painting?

    Speaker 3 (20:43):

    I see the next house <laugh>, yes, there are, there are times I do paint out in the deck. So that's, And there are many, many trees there. You actually don't see neighbors, so that's great.

    Speaker 2 (20:56):

    So when you're starting a new work, what's the moment where you get the, the idea? Or do you just sit there and wait for that? No,

    Speaker 3 (21:04):

    Those ideas you get anywhere. I once had the best idea driving up the Dawn Valley Parkway and, and I couldn't lose it. It was starting to fade. So I grabbed outta my glove compartment. The only thing I could find was a roadmap. So I found the biggest TT part, which was Lake Ontario. And as I drove, I was sketching it on the Lake Ontario <laugh>, so I wouldn't lose the image. So you do get the, I you don't, it's, you don't just sit down there and then get an idea. You're usually, you've got the idea and you've gotta get to the studio <laugh>.

    Speaker 2 (21:38):

    So tell me about some of the more contemporary ideas you're getting recently and and what is ending up on the canvas.

    Speaker 3 (21:45):

    Um, a lot of, actually just recently there was a, there's a new children's, uh, children's and Family indigenous center in, in London just has just opened. And, um, I created a very large painting for them to help help them raise money and focusing very much on the children. I'm sorry, what loads your question, <laugh>.

    Speaker 2 (22:08):

    What are some of the works you're working on right now? The contemporary ideas? What are some of the topics and themes that you're, you're looking into with your art?

    Speaker 3 (22:17):

    I'm actually at this point, uh, the wonderful part is that being an artist, you can, uh, use it to relay any kind of message. And mine are all about, you know, about what the needs are of our people, where we should be focusing, how we should be working together. And I'm hoping they pay attention to that. Uh, especially with children and with women are my focuses. And, and, and men as well. People do ask why I don't paint men. Uh, I paint women because I know that the best <laugh>, that's usually my answer. But, so I've, there are a lot of things that, that I'm involved in. Um, I'm, uh, on the board of the Woodstock Art Gallery. I'm involved in many, many ways. I do a lot of speaking engagements anyway. I can really messages. I try and be the, uh, how would you say it? I go out and speak to unusual groups who probably never heard native person speak, to let them know who we are, what we're about, and we're really okay <laugh>, you know, so I do that. Many people are never sure what to make of me, but that's what I do. And I live in unusual places where it's not a native community nearby. Um, I just want people to know we're all the same. We're all people.

    Speaker 2 (23:35):

    What are some of the misconceptions that you find when you're doing these speaking engagements?

    Speaker 3 (23:40):

    Many, many. I mean, a lot of people feel that, think native people get free gas. We don't pay income tax. Any native person you meet, offer reservation is a taxpayer. A lot of people don't realize that. Um, I'm actually even nons status. I don't even get any kind of benefits. You know, you can buy gas cheaper on a reserve. Sure you can. Uh, I have to show my card, but it's not, you know, people have, there's a lot of misconceptions that they have. It's

    Speaker 2 (24:11):

    Amazing. When you do these, uh, uh, speaking engagements, are they all, uh, extemporaneous or are you, you have a program where you show your art and you talk. I'm just wondering how, what can one expect when you make these speaking engages? I usually,

    Speaker 3 (24:22):

    If it's schools, they usually have examples of some of my, my work or I take it, I can speak to anybody, anybody from OK Ad all the way down to kindergarten, you know, and, and everything in between. Uh, the most unusual places I've, uh, I've done actually I've done, not just my art, I've been involved in many other aspects. When I just thought of something, speaking about my art, I've spoken about my art in jail to some inmates, <laugh>, anybody would listen, you know, to try and make a difference that we have to get along, we have to work together.

    Speaker 2 (25:01):

    How was that, uh, received in, in prisons? How did that help the, uh, inmates you met?

    Speaker 3 (25:07):

    Well, the inmates I met were all indigenous. I, I was very, they were very fine with that, very much. And, and I spoke to, uh, to many of them. Did they have no, no issues with that

    Speaker 2 (25:19):

    At all, But did it help them? I'm wondering, I'm just wondering how it helped.

    Speaker 3 (25:21):

    Well, they are slowly heavy, getting organized, you know, what happened a lot of, and back to boarding schools, a lot of, well, we were all taught not to speak our own languages or practice our own ways. And so they grew up going through life frustrated because they, they didn't know what it was that they, they should really be living by. They get in trouble in white society because they take their native teachings and they, you know, and so a lot of them are, are in there. They have no idea. It's hard to tell them that, remember the old ways and they say, But we have no access to it. So there are groups that help them out. They now can have sweat lodges. Spiritual leaders come in, they don't know what to be proud of. They're proud to be native, but they don't know what to be proud of. Cuz those teachings have not been, you know, allowed to be taught. And so I feel that's, uh, anyway, so, so a lot of them are understanding. And I even know one man who was a, who was a prisoner himself and is now a teacher because of that. So there are, you know, things are happening. It's everything, like everything else, it's very slow and, and happening. But right now we're in, in very dark times in the world, and we've gotta look after one another and look after our planet.

    Speaker 2 (26:46):

    Now Maxine, you don't sign your paintings as Maxine. Tell us how you sign your paintings and the story behind that.

    Speaker 3 (26:54):

    I was given a name when I was born. My, my full and proper name, it's longer than what I sign. Um, if I was to sign my whole name, I'd be signing half the paintings. My name is Maia Iani, and Maia is the heavens, the Skye. Iam means beyond, like my mother describes it when there's a sun behind the cloud and you see the edge of the cloud is bright. She describes it as that. And money means to walk. And it was given to me as a very young child, and I never had the opportunity to ever use it. Our, our surnames is native people were handed out, the government wanted everything in little boxes and orders. We just happened to be there when there were the ends, I guess <laugh> Noel, um, a lot of, uh, the,

    Speaker 2 (27:51):

    Uh, or maybe it was Christmas

    Speaker 3 (27:53):

    Or maybe where she had my mother called my sister Carol. So there you go, <laugh>, Right? But the, uh, my people are from North and South Dakota and Montana, as I said. And, uh, a lot of the, uh, the French priests were in that area. So that's where you get the Noel and you know, the different Sue, which is always weird. Sue people was French last names, right? And so we came along and we were the Noels. But I use my, uh, when I became an artist, I finally thought I used my opportunity to use my proper name, but I only use part of it. It's iani, which means to walk beyond.

    Speaker 2 (28:34):

    Tell me the story you told me earlier about, um, somebody told you 10 years ago or a few years ago, we're gonna be going through a very dark period and emerging from the other side. Uh, maybe you could, I'm not saying it very well, but maybe you could explain what that story is.

    Speaker 3 (28:50):

    Well, I don't have it verbatim either, but it's ba it's a very old, old story. Um, apparently it's, uh, everybody's heard of Nost Fordam as well. We have our own leaders who have, uh, major predictions and, and as I said, see old people who said that at this time would, would happen. Uh, and when my friends told me six years ago, I initially thought war, It would be obvious it would be war while there is that in the world, <laugh>. But, um, I thought it was for where I live, I thought it would be war. But in fact it was this, uh, dreadful, dreadful thing, uh, covid and many other, actually many other things. And, uh, it will be followed by a time in dreadful time, which is what the world's going through everywhere. And, uh, eventually we'll come back to some form of peace. And as I said, more women will be in power. And I'm, I think it's hard turn.

    Speaker 2 (29:55):

    And of course, global warming and the climate crisis is all part of that too.

    Speaker 3 (29:59):

    Do you know, you know what I everybody, um, all the news, you hear new cells, okay, we all know that bad news cells, bad news cells, and you never hear the good ones. But there are a lot of wonderful things happening out there. There are a lot of people actually making amazing efforts to try and help save our planet. God bless them. Uh, and, uh, we just need every, all the rest of the people to follow. And let's all work at this because it is a disaster. I mean, didn't they just find a turtle that was, uh, pooping out plastic for quite a while? That's terrible. Heartbreaking.

    Speaker 2 (30:38):

    But you still feel there's hope. Do you,

    Speaker 3 (30:41):

    I I do some semblance of hope, <laugh>. I think we can, you know, walk with it, walk with kindness, you know, be, be nice to each other, help out, try not to bite, use too many plastic bags. You know, there are a lot of ways you can help. Try not to, You don't need 20 pairs of shoes, you know? Um, try and live life a little better. Save our planet.

    Speaker 2 (31:10):

    And for those who are not indigenous, what message do you have about how we can, uh, achieve a better understanding? What lessons are there that we must all follow?

    Speaker 3 (31:20):

    I think it's, you know, our people had a lot of really good messages, certainly environmental ones over the years, but it's common sense. Everybody knows what they are. They just have to follow. We need, let's work together. Let's create a better world. And there are so many things you can do. Let's be kind to each other. Let's be good to our children. Get rid of guns. You know, um, I once before said an interview, which I maybe shouldn't have said. I said, you know, the problem with the world <laugh> right now, too much testosterone. Probably shouldn't go out there. But there I said it.

    Speaker 2 (32:02):

    Well, it's great to, uh, have you in the studio and, uh, uh, hear your message. And, uh, I hope, uh, you create many more great works of art in the future.

    Speaker 3 (32:14):

    Well, I have a few good plans.

    Speaker 2 (32:16):

    Great. Thanks very much. My guest today has been Maxine Noel. Thanks again.

    Speaker 1 (32:22):

    You've been listening to the Stratford Slice with Craig Thompson. For more episodes, check out our website, the stratford slice.com, and be sure to subscribe. The Stratford slice is produced by Ballon Ran Entertainment, Southwestern Ontario's number one digital media studio. If you have a great story to tell and want to be on the podcast, please reach out to us through our website, the stratford slice.com.

  • Speaker 1 (00:00:00):

    The following is a podcast from Be and Ran Entertainment.

    Speaker 2 (00:00:05):

    Hello, it's Craig Thompson, and this is the Stratford slice, as the old saying goes, If it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, it must be a duck.

    Speaker 2 (00:00:38):

    This show is gonna be a little bit different today because I'm going to be having a surprise guest who looks like me, sounds like me, and talks like me. So it it, it must be me. In fact, it is me. I'm a big fan of, of Michael Moore's podcast called Rumble. Michael is very talented at having a conversation with himself. He can go on for hours and hours, I imagine. Um, I'm not so practiced at that. Uh, so I'm not gonna be able to interview myself or ad lib for an hour or whatever time it takes. So I've brought in my old friend and, and colleague Rick Whelan, uh, who knows almost as much as I do about the stories. And he's going to be my, uh, coach or safety net as I, uh, go through my, the story of my adventures over the last number of decades.

    Speaker 3 (00:01:34):

    I will be your grand inquisitor. So fasten your safety belt.

    Speaker 2 (00:01:41):

    Well, I wanted to start off by talking about the whole full circle effect. I started this podcast as something to do, uh, uh, during the pandemic in between making, you know, major feature documentaries and interviewing people I know and people I, I, I didn't know. And I was thinking about that because I'm from Stratford originally and I started my career, uh, at the local radio station, uh, many years ago. And here I am doing a internet radio show called a podcast Full Circle. And the other interesting thing too, is that, uh, back, you know, when I was a a youngster, I delivered newspapers for the London Free Press. And the building where our studio is now was once the site of the London Free Press Stratford Bureau. And every week I would have to come down, or every day, I can't remember how many times I'd have to come down and deposit the coins and earnings that I collected, uh, for delivering the newspaper. So that's right on the, on the site. So life has a strange way of, of going full, full circle. Doesn't that

    Speaker 3 (00:02:43):

    Rick? It certainly does. Um, when I think of my relationship with you, it started, I believe, when you were still in high school and an usher at the, uh, Avan Theater when I was performing with the festival. That's right. So here we are, uh, how many years later, still, it's wild going back and forth. Um, I think let's start with your early days, uh, high school. How did you, what did you wanna be when you were in high school?

    Speaker 2 (00:03:12):

    Well, it's interesting because I think because our family moved to Stratford when I was eight, that sort of laid out a path for me that might not have existed in Sudbury, where we had, uh, moved to, perhaps in Sudbury. I might have become an astronaut or something like that, because we,

    Speaker 3 (00:03:31):

    Or nickel minor, or

    Speaker 2 (00:03:32):

    A nickel meer. But going from Sudbury to Stratford, uh, you're going into culture, a cultured town, you're absolutely influenced by, by the theater. And you reminded me back in the day when I was in Usher, one of the duties of the ushers was to sit in the theater and make sure the audience didn't do anything crazy. And so, in doing so, um, you tended to memorize the, the plays, watch them hundreds of times. So for a time I could recite Hamlet front to back and tempest and importance of being earn. And, uh, yeah. So I, I kind of, um, uh, knew the plays and I was immersed to culture. My dad was also an English teacher and he taught Shakespeare. Uh, so I think the fact that I was in Stratford kind of gave me some exposure to, um, uh, my future career. But at the time, I didn't view it as a career. It was more like a fun hobby.

    Speaker 3 (00:04:30):

    And curiously, you didn't pursue acting as maybe some people who saw a lot of theater. Did you decided at first you, uh, you wanted to be a an airline pilot,

    Speaker 2 (00:04:42):

    I believe. Well, yeah. I loved flying and I wanted to be an airline pilot. I thought it would be a cool thing to do. And I'd actually started, when I was working for London Free Press. I won a prize for being whatever the, the most signups of new customers or whatever. And as a prize, they took us all up in an old Lockheed Martin twin prop jet. Uh, we arrived in London, we flew over Stratford, you know, you'd never do that today. But we swooped over our backyard and, uh, my parents could look up and see the plane. And, uh, we were taken on an excursion to the London Free Press as a prize. The flight was part of the day. Uh, we went to see the hot type, uh, going into the newspaper, how they made the newspaper. I came home with a collection from that paper of the hot lead, uh, in one of those wooden boxes.

    Speaker 2 (00:05:31):

    And, uh, then they took us out to McDonald's, because London was the very first city in Canada, Heaven, McDonald's, This was like 1973 or something like that. Wow. So we had McDonald's, an airplane flight, and the, um, the London, uh, free press tour. So for me, all of that was kind of fun. And I think not becoming an actor was because I, I was quite shy, uh, and I think I gravitated towards radio because it's a good place. Well, acting is as well. But, uh, I felt like radio was a good place to, uh, where I could really be myself without Yeah. Uh, having a large number of people watching me. Because when you're an actor, you've got the audience, whereas in radio, you've got nobody. And

    Speaker 3 (00:06:14):

    You've got a great face for radio too.

    Speaker 2 (00:06:17):

    <laugh>. Oh,

    Speaker 3 (00:06:17):

    Thank you. Just kidding. Thank you. Uh, so tell me about how the dream to become an airline pilot died and s sprouted another dream.

    Speaker 2 (00:06:27):

    Well, you know, I, I didn't look at my hobby as being a, uh, anything more than just something to do for fun, because I had been reading the announcements at school and somebody said, Hey, you have a good voice. You should go up. And they're looking for somebody to do the high school news at the radio station. But answer to that question is that, um, I was terrible in math and physics, and my guidance counselor said, There's no way you're gonna get into Seneca, uh, with those kind of grades. Forget about it. Um, not really explaining that. You just don't, That's not the only way to become a pilot. Um, but, uh, it was sort of turning what I love doing into a job. So, um, skipping over a few years after I graduated from high school, I went to what's was then called Ryon Polytechnical Institute and got my degree in journalism. But my hobby, uh, working in radio actually laid the groundwork for, for my career because from the high school, uh, uh, news thing that I was doing every Thursday night or something like that, I moved into, uh, a news reporter and news reader, and then a, a weekend disc jockey, or you do everything, you read the news, you even read the funeral announcements on Sunday morning and loaded up the, um, the library of the religious program, that programming that would come on on Sunday mornings.

    Speaker 3 (00:07:53):

    And I believe you did a, a, a documentary, uh, with a famous Stratford citizen, uh, Lloyd Robertson. How did that

    Speaker 2 (00:08:03):

    Well, that's right. I was, uh, at the time we were considered nerds, but we were in the AV club where we learned to

    Speaker 3 (00:08:10):

    Use What do you mean at the time?

    Speaker 2 (00:08:11):

    Well, now, nowadays everybody's using cameras. Everybody's using cameras and things. Back in the day, we had a black and white video camera, and we had a dark room and photography and, and that kind of stuff. And people would make fun cuz you have chemicals in there and people, Oh, you're gonna go in there and get, uh, get high. But, uh, I was more interested in the video end of things, and it was coming up on Stratford's anniversary of a hundred years as a high school, and I wanted to tell that story. And I didn't want to use a black and white video camera. So I decided to do, uh, what was then called a multimedia presentation. So I shot the entire documentary on color slides, which I developed myself, and then did all the interviews on a real tore, uh, tape recorder. And, uh, went down to Toronto and got Lloyd Robertson to do the narration, uh, for

    Speaker 3 (00:09:05):

    It. And does that still exist in some way?

    Speaker 2 (00:09:08):

    It does. It's on three quarter inch matic tape, uh, which I don't know, I can still play or not. But, uh, uh, it was, uh, like a 45 minute documentary and it ended up going on Roger's Community Television, uh, as a, as a special.

    Speaker 3 (00:09:26):

    So you're at Ryerson, you graduate from Ryerson. And what was the first brush with the professional broadcasting career?

    Speaker 2 (00:09:35):

    Well, the reason I chose Harrison, I was also accepted at Western at journalism school as well as Carlton. And I was really torn, uh, because I, at the last minute I was going to Carlton and I decided the last minute to switch to Harrison. And I did that because more of the professors at Harrison also held down day jobs in the newspapers and at the cbc. So I felt that I would probably have a more direct line into a job doing the SEN route. And also I really wasn't eager to spend that much time in school. And Carlton was a four year program in Ryerson was three years. But the great thing about being in Toronto was the professors worked for this Toronto star, the Sun, the globe male, the cbc,

    Speaker 3 (00:10:21):

    Real life experience,

    Speaker 2 (00:10:22):

    Real life experience. And, uh, there were actually recruitment happening every summer for summer jobs. So my first summer, uh, I came back to Stratford and worked with you at the Stratford Beacon Herald. That was the summer that Terry Fox, uh, ran through Stratford. That's right. And, uh, you know, I, uh, breathed in so much secondhand smoke to last a lifetime in that summer. But I learned a lot about, about writing and it was cuz I was churning out. We were doing, you know, two or three articles a piece a day. Yeah, yeah. It was a lot of pa copy to write. Would,

    Speaker 3 (00:10:56):

    Would you, did you work at the festival edition at that point?

    Speaker 2 (00:10:59):

    No, I didn't.

    Speaker 3 (00:11:00):

    No, because every, every season the, uh, beacon her put out the festival edition, which was a wonderful multi-page background of the festival,

    Speaker 2 (00:11:10):

    It was always done in the wintertime, uh, leading up. And I started my summer placement in April. Oh yeah. So that was, uh, my job. We were up on the old building on Ontario Street. And, uh, my memory of the, I was never a smoker in high school, but the smoke is the constant memory. And there was another fellow in the newsroom at the time named Al Zs and Al had a, a habit of bringing in a, a scraper that you use for a drywall plastering. And once every two or three weeks he would scrape off the nicotine stains off the window <laugh> and, and throw the boats we could see out. So what the, what's the weather out there? Like? Let me, let me scrape the window

    Speaker 3 (00:11:52):

    Off. I know. It was, was almost de rigor to be a smoker in those days. And, and if you didn't, you you got secondhand smoke, uh, in s spades

    Speaker 2 (00:12:03):

    And a drinker. In fact, one of our classes, uh, uh, took place every Friday at the Imperial Public Library, which was next to the R in campus. And our, our esteemed professor would take the young recruits from the journalism school down for analysis where the real journalists hang out. So we'd go down to the bar and, uh, That's right. He'd regal us with stories. Yeah.

    Speaker 3 (00:12:24):

    That was the old image, isn't it? The hard bitten, hard drinking, hard smoking, you know, tough journalists. Well,

    Speaker 2 (00:12:32):

    It was true. In fact, when I got into the cbc, it was still prevalent in the day. That was sort of how you, you worked hard and you played hard. Yeah. And, uh, that,

    Speaker 3 (00:12:41):

    Oh, that has changed. Now you work hard and don't smoke and stay healthy.

    Speaker 2 (00:12:47):

    Yeah. So I had worked in radio, as I mentioned, in high school as a hobby. So I still didn't take radio seriously. I said, Well, if I really want to be a real journalist, I have to go to the journalism, the newspaper track of Ryerson. So I took the newspaper program, uh, because I felt that, oh, if I wanna be a real journalist, I have to stick with print. So, um, uh, I did, uh, I edited the Ryerson Campus newspaper. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, I did that for a year, got a lot of, uh, experience doing that. And the next summer, um, I went down to London and worked for a CF P, which was Channel 10. I did some TV work there at the time. So it was kind of torn at the time. When am I gonna be a broadcaster or, or print reporter?

    Speaker 3 (00:13:37):

    What tipped the scales toward broadcasting for

    Speaker 2 (00:13:40):

    You? Well, it didn't, it tipped it towards newspapers because after I graduated I got job offers. I had applied to newspapers cuz they were actually paying money. Radio paid nothing. Right? Yeah. And if you really wanted, And also newspapers were unionized and it was like a, a real job. Whereas radio was like, you know, you're doing it for fun and you should be happy just getting nothing. Uh, so I had done an internship at the Global Mail. I had a pretty good portfolio of print articles. So when I was ready to graduate, uh, I got offered a lot of different jobs from different newspapers across Canada. Um, and I eventually accepted an offer to go to Ottawa and work for the Ottawa citizen. And, um, What

    Speaker 3 (00:14:24):

    Was your beat then?

    Speaker 2 (00:14:25):

    Well, it was features, features writing. Cuz that was my specialty. I was really good at writing long stories. I wasn't very good at writing short, short pieces.

    Speaker 3 (00:14:33):

    Spot

    Speaker 2 (00:14:34):

    News. Yeah. But I have to step back for a minute because one of the ways I paid my way through Ryerson was because of my radio experience in Stratford. Cfrb needed somebody to do overnight news on weekends, uh, the least popular shift in any radio station. And, uh, they took my audition tape thinking, Oh, here's some guy who must be in his thirties or whatever. And, uh, when this kid shows up on the doorstep, you know, of the place where Gordon Sinkler worked, and they're like, Okay, I guess you, you know what you're doing. So they gave me the overnight job, uh, in my second year of Ryerson. I did that for, for two years.

    Speaker 3 (00:15:14):

    And you would do the news updates

    Speaker 2 (00:15:15):

    Or news updates starting at midnight. So midnight, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5. And

    Speaker 3 (00:15:20):

    How long did the updates last?

    Speaker 2 (00:15:21):

    They were seven minutes. And

    Speaker 3 (00:15:23):

    Where did you get the news from?

    Speaker 2 (00:15:25):

    Off the wire services. Okay. You have to write them. And then we had the radio, uh, services coming in putting, but I'd done that for years in Stratford at tjc s so I, it wasn't, it wasn't except a bigger audience. Yeah. And, uh, it was, it was quite fun. But again, you look back and you pinch yourself because how lucky you were to be working at the time. Yeah. When Gordon Sinkler, Betty Kennedy, Earl Warren, these are people that my parents and my grandmother listened to. Yeah. You know, in the 19 legend, fifties and sixties. Legend. Yeah. And we didn't have smartphones, so I couldn't take selfies or I didn't, he didn't do that kind of stuff. So you don't have a lot of, And you didn't sit down and say, Hey Gordon, let me get some career advice from you. There wasn't, there was kind of a, you were there, but you didn't feel that you belonged in some

    Speaker 3 (00:16:11):

    Way. Yeah. They were you an apprentice? Yeah. And they were the masters and you didn't approach them No. Readily.

    Speaker 2 (00:16:17):

    No. And also back in that day, there was kind of a, society was more hierarchical. You respected your elders and you speak when spoken to. And, uh, it was a very

    Speaker 3 (00:16:28):

    Different world. Same thing, the same thing goes for theater, obviously. Uh, the British model of theater is very much structured and, and the young actors who are just starting out don't dare to approach the the leading man or the, the iconic British actor. It's very, it's very, you know, regimented and, and much like what you're talking about at the old days of crb.

    Speaker 2 (00:16:53):

    Well, it was so much fun. It was so much fun. I didn't get much sleep. Uh, I had to, you know, being a student, you are also partying a bit of time. So I, I think I had to survive on the overnight shifts, you know, popping some caffeine pills and drinking lots of coffee. But it was a great experience. And the, I think the biggest news night that I was there was when the night John Lennon was murdered. Oh yes. And my newscast was the first one to, to actually report it. So that was my wow. News overnight, uh, when he was gunned down in Central Park.

    Speaker 3 (00:17:25):

    Yeah. What wire services did you have? Canadian Press and at

    Speaker 2 (00:17:29):

    Cp and then we had ap. Yeah. And then we had broadcast news, which sent us the audio from across Canada. And then we, then we had nbc, uh, we were an affiliate. So in the news business there's lots of sharing. Yeah. And so Cfrb Standard Broadcasting, uh, subscribed to NBC News. So we would supply news to NBC and then we would have the right to run NBC Reports. So what we had on the night of John Lennon was we had a live report, or live recorded reports, uh, from NBC radio, uh, from in front of the Dakota. So,

    Speaker 3 (00:18:04):

    And that NBC connection, I believe, led to another gig for you.

    Speaker 2 (00:18:08):

    Not right. Then further down the road, because getting back to Ottawa. So after, uh, having fun working at, at Cfrb, uh, um, I should tell one other story about crb. So my grandmother was a huge Cfrb fan. And, um, she lived in Allison at the time, and she like listened to the station religiously. Like those were her heroes. And when I started working there at the age of like 20 or 21, I brought her down into the hallways and looking up at the photos of the, all the people who were working there. And she just, she said to me, uh, you know, Toma, this is one of the highlights of my life, is seeing my grandson work at the same place where all my heroes worked. So, it's

    Speaker 3 (00:18:54):

    Quite funny. And, and in her book you had arrived, I'm sure.

    Speaker 2 (00:18:57):

    Oh, exactly. Wow. He's, he's doing this.

    Speaker 3 (00:18:59):

    It's funny how that kind of loyalty toward a a newspaper or radio is very old school. I'm not sure it exists today, but I know, uh, I've heard stories that people who didn't believe in the moon landing until it was put in the local paper. Yeah. And then they believed it. Yeah. There was a skepticism of any other, any other broadcast. But everyone had a favorite station or newspaper.

    Speaker 2 (00:19:23):

    Well, the great thing about C frb, uh, it, at the time it was the biggest station, one of the biggest stations in North America. So its Signal 10 10 would reach all across Ontario and into the United States. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, it was, it was really, uh,

    Speaker 3 (00:19:37):

    And that was a Rogers? That's Fred. Fred. Uh, no it wasn't. No,

    Speaker 2 (00:19:40):

    No. Originally it was Cfrb Rogers battery list. It was the first that, Right. But when I worked for it, it was owned by, uh, standard broadcast. I see. Broadcasting. It was a corporate. Yeah. Corporate Rogers had, uh, got rid of it a long time ago, previous to that.

    Speaker 3 (00:19:56):

    So I feel the career fate slowly pointing you toward broadcasting. How did that path go?

    Speaker 2 (00:20:02):

    Well, I was gonna get back to the fact that the CRB family, they really liked the work I was doing. And I, when I moved to Ottawa, I knew there were plans, uh, uh, Underfoot to open a new radio station in Ottawa Cuz Standard had a radio station in Montreal, c j a d a powerhouse. They had cfrb in Toronto, the number one station there, but they had nothing in the nation's capital. The main radio station up there that was doing well was five 80 CFR A, it was the dominant radio in the AM on the AM band. And Cfrb said, Well, we should have a presence in the Ottawa market. So they had this bold idea to open a replica of Cfrb and CJ a D and Ottawa called CJs B and they planted the radio station on the same property as the TV station they owned, which was C J O H.

    Speaker 2 (00:20:53):

    And, uh, started a radio station from scratch. And they hired a lot of journalists and opened the station with great fanfare in September. Went on the air of September, 1982. And, uh, when they, they lured me back from the Ottawa citizen because I was actually, uh, a summer placement. It was a summer program that they hired graduates from Harrison to, to do. And, uh, I wanted a more guaranteed long-term job. And they weren't, uh, guaranteeing us cuz it was the recession at the time. The 80 eighties recession. Yeah. And the writing was on the wall that maybe your summer job might not continue. There was no guarantee. So I jumped at the chance for a full-time job at this new radio station and at the new radio station. I was a, um, not a newscaster, I was a reporter. I was out in the field covering the news. I was up on Parliament Hill, uh, and I was also the helicopter, uh, traffic reporter. So I would go up, They, they rotated that I didn't do it every day, but I did morning, sometimes afternoon, sometimes doing the And

    Speaker 3 (00:22:00):

    How would you file your stories? Uh, audio or

    Speaker 2 (00:22:03):

    Over a two-way radio in the car. So back then, you know, we had citizens band radios and you could hook up your microphone and your tape recorder and file over the radio or, um, this is before cell phones. Uh, you would go to a phone booth or a place where you're reporting from and you unscrew the, the microphone piece on the phone, get two alligator clips, uh, that hooked up your tape recorder. And you could use the phone as a transmitter and send your report down the line and do your editing on your tape recorder. So, uh, that's how we filed reports. Or you went back to the studio in your car and did it in the booth there. But,

    Speaker 3 (00:22:41):

    And it's, it's must be incredible to you how the scene has changed and broadcasting in a very short time. In other words, your, your time in the business, you go from, you know, putting the alligator clips in a, in a phone to talking into your hand with the, with the cell phone.

    Speaker 2 (00:22:58):

    Yeah. And at the time, using razor blades and tape, uh, on a realtor to rail deck to edit your radio reports. Yeah. For, for the show it was really, it's amazing. Equip look at now we have a radio station right here at this desk, so

    Speaker 3 (00:23:11):

    It's, uh, I know it's, it's frightening. Uh,

    Speaker 2 (00:23:14):

    No, it's not. It's just, it's just amazing. I think it's not frightening. It's, it's amazing to see how much things have changed. But I'm so grateful for how much I learned during that, that time. Like even at CF p l in London, when I was working for CF p l they were just getting into videotape. So the junior reporters, and I was one of them, I was a summer student, would be given film cameras. So we had camera operators with us, but we had to edit our own film. We would come back from the field with our aro and our B roll, we take it to the lab. And then they would give us a, you know, an hour later our film and we'd have to sit at the steam beck, uh, editing our own news for that knight's broadcast.

    Speaker 3 (00:23:54):

    So you were a film editor as well?

    Speaker 2 (00:23:56):

    Yeah, I had to learn how to edit my own stuff.

    Speaker 3 (00:23:58):

    That's amazing.

    Speaker 2 (00:23:59):

    But it's the same principle as editing radio cuz you were using a razor blade Yeah. Tape. Yeah. So it really wa when I look back on it, I say, Wow, I did that, but I didn't really appreciate it at the time. Yeah. Because we thought, But

    Speaker 3 (00:24:12):

    At the same time it, it gave you a groundwork on telling a story. Yeah. Which I think now is your, is your strong point.

    Speaker 2 (00:24:20):

    That's right. And back in the day, people thought videotape was a bit of a joke cause it looked kind of electronic. Yeah. Didn't look real. Yeah. And at the time you had to hire body builders because they, the tape decks weighed like a hundred pounds. Yeah. And you'd have this weightlifter person walk around with you this giant umbilical cord, uh, carrying it. Uh, so there was a camera operator, a sound operator, and a carrier of the vtr and the reporter. So it wasn't really what we called run and gun. No, you

    Speaker 3 (00:24:50):

    Were very, very limited.

    Speaker 2 (00:24:51):

    Very limited. Yeah. And we had these giant wooden tripods. So it was a very cumbersome technology. Whereas with film, it's like today's camera, everything is housed in the camera. Yeah. And film. Oh, I get a film camera today. I get to go. You can go run around. It'd be a lot more flexible. Yeah. But

    Speaker 3 (00:25:08):

    Yeah, absolutely. Uh, revolutionized. Like I, people who today who have those little cameras on their front porch, I mean, they can, you know, monitor their home from work or from on vacation. It's, uh, it's amazing. So there you are. What's your next, what's your next venture in uh, in broadcast?

    Speaker 2 (00:25:29):

    Well, in Ottawa, um, I'd always wanted to be a war correspondent. I really wanted to get over and, and see some action. Cuz I was a real hero of, you know, the old war reporters. I followed Edward Arm,

    Speaker 3 (00:25:43):

    Mero,

    Speaker 2 (00:25:44):

    Dan Rather. Yeah. Michael McClure. Um, a lot of the people who had done the Vietnam War, cuz I was, uh, you know, coming of age Sure. At the end of the Vietnam War. And I saw all the coverage and I said

    Speaker 3 (00:25:56):

    The danger didn't

    Speaker 2 (00:25:58):

    No look for adventurous to me. Yeah. So, because I was working at the radio station in Ottawa, uh, which was also affiliated with nbc, I was filing reports. Uh, this was NBC Radio news, you know, I was filing the reports from now and again. Yeah. When there was something of interest to them, like the Princess Diana's visit to to Ottawa, that kind of stuff. And, uh, I believe there was a Canadian running the news department at NBC in New York. And, uh, you would chat to these people cuz you'd be filing reports and Yeah, he said, uh, I think I either I mentioned it to him or he said, We're looking for some, uh, new recruits and uh, um, and I said, I really want to see the world. And he said, How would you like to go to the Philippines? Uh, we think there's gonna be a revolution, a violent revolution, and Marcos will be oted. Do you want to go? And, uh, I said, Of course. So I accepted the job to go to the Philippines, which I'm glad I didn't in a way, uh, it didn't end up going, um, because it turned out to be a soft revolution and there was no violence whatsoever. And of course, in the news business, no violence means no story.

    Speaker 3 (00:27:06):

    Yeah, exactly.

    Speaker 2 (00:27:07):

    So I kind of made the, the right decision. Um, and instead I opted for the safer route and, um, moved next door to the TV station, C J O H in Ottawa and did, uh, a stint reporting, but I still had itchy feet, uh, itchy feet. I, I wasn't happy doing that. And, uh, a colleague of mine had then moved to C FTO in Toronto, which at the time was owned by the Eatons and the Bassett's, and they were expanding. And, uh, I said, I'll try that. So he, he offered me a job down there, and I went, uh, down to Toronto where the age of like 23 or 24, I was at the biggest TV station. Yeah.

    Speaker 3 (00:27:52):

    This is the studio, the big

    Speaker 2 (00:27:53):

    Studio agent court now. Yeah. Now where Discovery is in Be it's owned by Bell. And I was there and, um, I was on camera, I was an on camera reporter, um, every night on the news.

    Speaker 3 (00:28:04):

    Yeah. And you would have a camera person come with you and

    Speaker 2 (00:28:07):

    Yeah, I mean, in the morning you'd go in at, at seven and get, you'd talk to the assignment editor and he'd assign you your story. And then there was like 10 or 15 camera operators. So you'd have your crew for the day. You'd go and do a different story every day. Do you remember

    Speaker 3 (00:28:21):

    If one of the top stories you, you covered then, or?

    Speaker 2 (00:28:24):

    Well, we, the biggest story of the time was the Susan Ellis, uh, Sick Kids Hospital, uh, inquiry. Yeah. Which was called the, what was it called? The Dublin Inquiry? No, that was the Ben Johnson one. Uh, it was the inquiry into the, um, Sick Kids Hospital nurse. I

    Speaker 3 (00:28:45):

    Remember that. Yeah. Di Jo, I believe was involved.

    Speaker 2 (00:28:49):

    Yeah. The death of children at the hospital. Yeah. That was big. Um, and I also covered G seven meeting, uh, at Toronto Convention Center with, uh, President Bush. No, Ronald Reagan. Margaret Thatcher. Yeah. Uh, Helmet Schultz from Germany. Right. And Brian Mulrooney. So a lot of things like that. And, uh, the good thing is, wherever I worked, whether it was Cjcs or Cfrb or cft, I've always kept a few snippets of my reporting. So I still have kind of an archive of what I did, so, Yeah. Um, and, uh, yeah. So

    Speaker 3 (00:29:28):

    How long did you work at C fco?

    Speaker 2 (00:29:31):

    I worked there for a, a, a couple of years. And, um, the great part of, uh, that time was I was across the hall from Lloyd Robertson, who I'd met, met years previously doing the documentary in Stratford. So

    Speaker 3 (00:29:44):

    Former Stratford resident. That's

    Speaker 2 (00:29:46):

    Right. And when you're, the two newsroom are just adjacent to each other, and when they had a shortage across the hall, they would always come across to CFT and say, Hey, anybody wanna work a Canada AM shift? Uh, tomorrow Canada AM is the mor was the morning show. And a Canada AM shift meant coming in at one or two in the morning and working till nine. So,

    Speaker 3 (00:30:07):

    And what did that work com, uh, com

    Speaker 2 (00:30:10):

    Uh, Chase producer. So you would write stuff for copy and Okay. And line up stuff for the show. So I did, uh, a bit of that. And then when you're working for CFT as a local CTV affiliate, if you get a story that's big enough, it would get on the national news. So I got a lot of every day filing a report.

    Speaker 3 (00:30:30):

    I get the sense that this was a climate of news. The news business where you had an opportunity to, to do almost everything and learn almost everything. It

    Speaker 2 (00:30:40):

    Was a huge opportunity because technology had finally made it possible for news to expand. We had satellite trucks, you could do almost live stuff, pretty much it was getting into the live era, but, uh, there was, and news was on three or four channels. So there was a, uh, a focused audience, and it was where you had to go for TV news. There was no other choice. Newspapers, radio or, or the nightly news.

    Speaker 3 (00:31:05):

    Do you think that same, those same opportunities are available today?

    Speaker 2 (00:31:09):

    No. And we're seeing today that, uh, the media has probably the lowest level of respect it's had in, in history. You know, people calling us fake and whatever. It's, uh, it's dangerous. And you have people bouncing up on camera behind, uh, especially women reporters and saying obscenities trying to ruin their, their pieces. And then in the Ottawa, Freedom Convoy protests, uh, you know, yelling obscenities at the reporters who are doing their job. So I, I feel quite lucky at the time that to have gone through what I, I did through and what I learned. And sometimes I, I, I wish, Oh, I wish I had done taken advantage of that opportunity. Oh, wasn't I? Yeah.

    Speaker 3 (00:31:53):

    Plus back then there was no such thing as fake news. And that is plagued the, the national landscape.

    Speaker 2 (00:32:00):

    Well, we were in the era of Walter Cronkite. Yeah. And most

    Speaker 3 (00:32:04):

    Trusted man

    Speaker 2 (00:32:04):

    In America. Yeah. And, uh, who was reading the news at CBC at the time, I think it was Nolton Nash. Yeah. And, uh, George Cameron and all those legends from the, the days. So you respected the people reading the news, and you took it absolutely as gospel and you did feel a sense of privilege because you were, you were respected. Oh, my son's working in the news or my, I got a job in the news department. So, but the, I was still in my twenties and I felt like, you know, I've reached this level, but I still had that itchy foot.

    Speaker 3 (00:32:38):

    There's more,

    Speaker 2 (00:32:39):

    More I wanted to get out and, and see the world. And, uh, um, during that time, there was an opportunity for local news reporters to go to Israel. Um, I think it was the Canadian Jewish Congress or one of the Jewish organizations, um, would every year bring a group of local reporters to Israel. This was just after the Israeli invasion of Lebanon. Okay. And around the time of Saura and Shala, the, the camps in Beirut, the massacres there. And the, And did you the killing of part of that killing of Clark Todd, the CTV reporter? Yeah. Yeah. Uh, did I take part in that? No. Well, I was there as, um, as a local reporter. So we were brought to Israel, uh, where they were. It was propaganda. Yeah. But they were giving us the story of their legitimacy and why they were doing what they're doing.

    Speaker 2 (00:33:31):

    So they took us around, we'd filed reports back to our home stations, and then, um, they took us, uh, right up to the border. Um, and we stayed there. Um, and we went into Southern Lebanon with the South Lebanese army, uh, just to see what was going on. And we had to sit on our helmets. We were all wearing flack jackets and helmets, sit on our helmets because of landmines. And, uh, went in on a tour of Southern Lebanon around that time. It was quite a risky venture, but Yeah, I can imagine. Yeah. But we did that. And, uh, now

    Speaker 3 (00:34:07):

    I remember you when you worked at the Beacon, and I remember you when you were the usher at the Avan Theater, but I lost track of you for a while. And then suddenly I turned on my television and they were on a Northern Ireland. I cemetery dodging bullets.

    Speaker 2 (00:34:22):

    Well, because I was working at CFT in Toronto, which is a very, when you're in your twenties and you want to have fun, it's, it was a very corporate, uh, station. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, uh, it was owned by the Eatons and the Bassets, uh,

    Speaker 3 (00:34:37):

    Establishment.

    Speaker 2 (00:34:38):

    Yeah. Your hair had to be cut above the collar, you know, there was a lot of rules, you know, whatever, you know, it was one day I came, uh, my very first week there, I think the owner of the station or the manager of the station came down and, uh, I felt a tug on the back of my, uh, head saying Thompson hair above the caller. So it was kind of a lot of rules. And I wasn't really, I wanted to tell stories that I wanted to tell. And they had, uh, something called must covers. When you had a must cover, it meant that it was something the Edens was sponsoring. Like, Oh, you have to go down and cover this fun run or this donation to charity, or a sick Kid's hospital thing. And Yeah. Yeah. It's all news. But I, I, I,

    Speaker 3 (00:35:18):

    So there was interference from the, uh, powers that be

    Speaker 2 (00:35:21):

    Oh yeah. It was their platform to tell a great story of what they were doing. There was legitimate news, but if there was a slow news day, you'd, you'd have to fill it in with stuff that would make the Eatons and the Bassets, uh, uh, giving them exposure in the news. So

    Speaker 3 (00:35:36):

    I know they're so careful now when, when they talk about anything commercial, they always identify, you know, so and so as a sponsor of this program

    Speaker 2 (00:35:46):

    Or not, then? Not then. No. It was all, So I was still, uh, uh, people thought I was crazy at the time because I was making, I don't know, a lot of money. <laugh>, I think it was like 40, over $40,000 in the mid

    Speaker 3 (00:36:02):

    Eighties, which back then was probably

    Speaker 2 (00:36:04):

    Over, over a hundred today. Yeah, sure. And I said, No, I'm gonna go off, uh, to Europe. And, um, I had had friends, I had a lot of contact working in, in international news for the different, uh, wire services. And they said, Well, you should go to London and, uh, hook up with Reuters, uh, which was a news agency mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And they had a place, uh, a TV news service called VI News. And I knew VI News because Viz News was Reuters TV arm, and they would supply all the, the TV stations that I worked for Right. With their footage. So I, it's kind of an insider thing. So I went over there and applied for a job and got a job, um, uh, at Viz News as a producer and, uh, writer and reporter. So I worked there, uh, for like a year, year and a half, uh, in England, learning a lot about, uh, international news.

    Speaker 2 (00:36:56):

    This is at the height of apartheid. So there was a lot of violence going on in, in South Africa mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And, um, it was the time of the space shuttle disaster. There was a lot of, uh, demand for instant satellite news, which vis news was VI News was a satellite news agency. So we were really at the cutting edge. Um, but when you're mixing and mingling with other Canadians in the community in London, um, you make connections. And, uh, I learned that the woman who was the CBC radio reporter in London was about to go to Moscow, uh, with her husband. And so a job was coming open at, uh, CBC in London. And I applied for it. And lo and behold, I got the job, uh, as the local, uh, local hire radio reporter at the CBC Bureau in London, which at the time was like an embassy. I think there must have been 30 employees there. There was a sh affair, there was a, uh, it was a, CBC was bloated and big at the time. Yeah. It was a three story building. And there was the sort of the diplomatic person on the ground floor. There was the manager, there was the French, there was the English. It was a huge operation. And, uh, and

    Speaker 3 (00:38:09):

    Even though it was cbc, it was still kind of a government

    Speaker 2 (00:38:13):

    Mentality. Yeah, yeah. Very much so. The, um, we were right next to the bbc, bbc, uh, uh, downtown, uh, West End headquarters, cuz we would share libraries with them. And, uh, there were, there was, uh, uh, two French correspondent. There was a radio and tv, uh, French correspondent, and there were two English correspondent, a TV correspondent, and a, uh, a foreign correspondent, um, who at the time was Patrick Brown. But when you're the London, uh, Bureau radio reporter, you cover, you know, Europe and North Africa in the middle mm-hmm. <affirmative> at least. So you get an assignment reporter in Toronto saying, Hey, there's something this happening in Spain, can you hop over there and do it? And you have to say, Well, it looks close on the map, but it's actually gonna take me a day or two to get there. So we're always explaining geography, uh, to the people back in Toronto. So what I was gonna say was that the, the main correspondent, Patrick Brown was off doing other things most of the time, which left, uh, the UK and parts of Western Europe on my doorstep, uh, to cover a lot of stories. And there was a lot going on. Yes.

    Speaker 3 (00:39:30):

    Especially specifically, uh, in Northern Ireland.

    Speaker 2 (00:39:34):

    Absolutely. This was between 1985 and 1988, the height of the troubles. And it just so happened that I think it was Remembrance Day in 1987, uh, we woke up, uh, Remembrance Day and, uh, in a skill, uh, uh, the IRA planted a bomb outside the church, and, uh, 12 people were killed and about 60 people were injured and there were other news happening. So I believe the TV reporter was off doing something else, and the radio reporter was somewhere else. And so I got the call, uh, get on a plane, get up to in skill and get this on the news. And that was my first TV and radio joint mm-hmm. <affirmative> report. I think I was there for two or three days, maybe longer.

    Speaker 3 (00:40:26):

    Always in, in Gillen

    Speaker 2 (00:40:27):

    Or always in a gillen, because it's so close. It's only an hour from London. Yeah. By plane. In fact, then you didn't have to go through security and all that kind of stuff. You just hopped on the plane and went. But we were up there when Margaret Thatcher came up and they did a, um, uh, memorial mm-hmm. <affirmative>, I was up there a couple of times. So that was a, that was my first sort of real experience at conflict. And then I think it was March, 1988, I was sent up again because what had happened was, um, um, there were three Ira, um, I guess you call 'em terrorists or extremists or operatives. They had been killed in Gibraltar by the British troops.

    Speaker 1 (00:41:08):

    You're listening to the Stratford slice with Craig Thompson. Check out our website, the stratford slice.com and be sure to subscribe. And now back to the show.

    Speaker 2 (00:41:22):

    Uh, so that was a, a, a major event and they were about to be buried in, uh, the IRA cemetery in Built Town Cemetery. It was March, 1988. And again, there was no security. He was pretty open and, um, a Protestant extremist or, or terrorist by the name, I remember his name. Even Michael Stone was his name. Hmm. And he came in, uh,

    Speaker 3 (00:41:46):

    Where was the cemetery? Belfast. It was in Bell or

    Speaker 2 (00:41:49):

    In Belfast. Yeah. Okay. Milltown Cemetery. It's still there. And he came in, uh, armed to the sub-machine gun, uh, some grenades. And he just let loose on the circle of people right around the, there were three graves, I think. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And he just let loose and he killed seven people. Wow. Or three people, I can't remember how many people died. I think, uh, seven people died and many others were injured. And was he killed? Nope, he wasn't killed. He got away the mob. No, he didn't get away either. The mob, uh, tackled him, uh, and then the police intervened and pulled him away. But

    Speaker 3 (00:42:29):

    So you were there standing in line at the ceremony?

    Speaker 2 (00:42:31):

    Not in line. We were, we were all encircled, uh, around the graves. So at the very three, the three, uh, uh, holes in the ground, the three burial spots, then the IRA leadership, Jerry Adams, and all the people from the IRA and Shinhan and then the media. Right. And, and family, of course. Yeah. So we were like from here to the end of the table, maybe three meters away, four meters away from the actual, uh, thing. The, the actual ceremony. Yeah. And, uh, Michael Stone came in from the opposite side of the west. So we saw him coming in, uh, and started firing. And I immediately jumped into another freshly dug grave beside me along with a German Raider

    Speaker 3 (00:43:19):

    Reporter. Not one of the soldiers graves?

    Speaker 2 (00:43:21):

    No, it was empty. Yeah. Okay. It was an empty, uh, an empty, uh, grave site. I jumped in there and it was like up to my shoulders. So I kept my microphone rolling. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, uh, as the gunfire and screaming erupted. And the coast was clear eventually, and we climbed out and, uh, I rushed to the nearest payphone and, uh, made a collect call to Canada and filed my first report.

    Speaker 3 (00:43:47):

    Do you still have that? Hmm? You still have all of the recordings of that?

    Speaker 2 (00:43:51):

    I even have the raw tape of the, of the, of the gunfire. Yeah.

    Speaker 3 (00:43:56):

    Were you ever called before? I assumed a stone character was put on trial.

    Speaker 2 (00:44:03):

    No, there was hundreds of media from all over the world. Oh. Oh,

    Speaker 3 (00:44:06):

    Shit. They didn't depend on,

    Speaker 2 (00:44:07):

    No. Yeah. And I was the radio reporter there. The CBC had a TV crew there. Yeah. But I was the radio reporter. So there was a, there was a lot of the troubles were causing a lot of, uh, of giving a lot of news, getting a lot of news coverage at the time

    Speaker 3 (00:44:22):

    Between what was going through your mind when the guns, the gunfire started.

    Speaker 2 (00:44:27):

    Nothing. I was there to do my job and I just, my first thought was to keep recording. Yeah. And watch as much as possible and see what was going on. Because in the confusion of a massacre, you don't really know anything except what you're seeing. Yeah, yeah. And, uh, piece the story together bit by bit.

    Speaker 3 (00:44:44):

    Now, were you recognized at all for this coverage? Nope. You weren't given any sort of award or?

    Speaker 2 (00:44:51):

    No, I wasn't expecting an award and never even thought I, I don't even think today I was doing my job.

    Speaker 3 (00:44:56):

    Did, did anyone at the home office say nice going, or

    Speaker 2 (00:45:01):

    No? I mean, I think, uh, um, I don't know. I mean, I have to think about that. But the funny, funny thing is, the woman who read the news, uh, World Report News in the morning, back in the day, Barbara Smith eventually moved back to, moved to Stratford. So she retired and lives in Stratford. And she was the, uh, the news reader who interviewed me from the cemetery that day.

    Speaker 3 (00:45:24):

    So again, circled and

    Speaker 2 (00:45:25):

    Yeah. But the most alarming thing happened after that massacre because, um, uh, the people who were killed in that massacre also had to be buried. And the British Undercover Secret Service were there watching the parade, commemorating these people who had died at the cemetery. And the crowd spotted them. Cuz you know, they're undercover, but Yeah, it's, yeah, they're sitting ducks. Yeah. And, um, they, in front of me and the World's media, they dragged these two young men out of their car and beat them to a pulp in front to death in front of the cameras. And for me, that was more traumatic, seeing that, that they were British soldiers, British undercover soldiers monitoring Wow. Monitoring the parade, uh, for the people who had died at the Milltown Cemetery the previous week or two

    Speaker 3 (00:46:23):

    Previous. And you saw all that as well. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Wow.

    Speaker 2 (00:46:26):

    We filmed it. It was, it was, it was awful. Yeah. And, um, I was up there for weeks on end and back and forth a lot. And I remember, uh, being back in Toronto, uh, not so long a, after I was sitting at a patio, um, at across from the CBC on Jarvis Street and a car backfire. I was having a lunch with a friend and I, and I just jumped out of my, you hit the ground. Well, it scared me and I said, Oh, I've got, Yeah. And we didn't know what it was called back then, but it was P ptsd, you know? Yes. And,

    Speaker 3 (00:47:05):

    Uh, absolutely. I can imagine that. Yeah. Well, now, your career now is, and for quite some time has been documentaries. And how did that happen?

    Speaker 2 (00:47:18):

    Well, um,

    Speaker 3 (00:47:19):

    Going from hard news to,

    Speaker 2 (00:47:21):

    Well, it was kind of half of a accident, but after I had worked in London, I came back to, to Canada. Uh, this was the time when Nolton Nash was still reading the news. Yeah. And I got offered a job, I guess you were asking about an awards. I mean, I think my work got recognized and they said, Well, we have to have Craig back in in Yeah. At the home office or in Canada. So I got offered a job, was married at the time, and we both got offered jobs at the cbc. I was, uh, Nolton Nash's, uh, writer Wednesday, Thursday, Friday. One of them, I mean, they had a few writers. Yeah, yeah. Writing copy, uh, back on the manual typewriter and the Yeah. Carbon paper. And

    Speaker 3 (00:48:04):

    You'd get the stories off the wire and then do your own rewrite.

    Speaker 2 (00:48:06):

    Yeah. You do your own rewrite and you would do intros. You would be responsible for editing something with an editor and packaging it and Right. Writing the on camera intro that Nolton would read. I would do that Wednesday, Thursday, Friday. And then Saturday, Sunday I would have my own camera crew and I'd be assigned a, a feature report or something for Saturday, Sunday. And I did that. And then Nolton retired and Peter Mansbridge took over and I did the same thing for a while. Uh, doing writing for Peter Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, and then doing the reporting on Saturday and Sunday. And occasionally during the week as well. But because I had started my TV career in the private sector in, in at CFT and ctv, I'd had a lot of friends over there. And I, I don't think I was complaining, but I was saying, you know, I like working at cbc, but I'd like to get more serious news.

    Speaker 2 (00:48:58):

    Cuz on weekends when you're working for the cbc, there's a lot of features. Puff piece, uh, puff pieces. You're gonna go and do the, uh, cat show or whatever, you know, or the, whatever the, the story of the day was the, the weekend soft pieces that I wanted to really, you know, I was, I wanted to be a war correspondent. I wanted to do really deep stuff. And, and so ctv, uh, was looking for somebody in their Toronto Bureau, uh, to, it was the floated job. So the, they wanted an on-camera person in Toronto five days a week, Monday to Friday. And I was living in Toronto. We had, you know, a kid on the way mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And, uh, I wanted a job in, in Toronto because CBC had said, Well, if you really want to get more air time, this is what happened.

    Speaker 2 (00:49:42):

    They said, Well, you can go to Charlottetown or you can go to Winnipeg, or you can go somewhere else. We just can't give you air time here. You have to go out in the, in the, in the, the region in the regions to pay your dues and get more on camera. But I was kind of stuck because, uh, uh, my wife at the time was reading the midday news on cbc. So she had a pretty, uh, decent job as an on camera news reader. Uh, this is before News World or around at the time News World came on. Um, and uh, so I took the job at CTV as the floater. And what you do is, the floater is you would sometimes report from Toronto, but if there was a, a gap in a bureau like Winnipeg, you'd go out there, you'd go to Edmonton mm-hmm. <affirmative>, I went to Washington. So I would basically float around and do, uh, reports from, So

    Speaker 3 (00:50:30):

    In the baseball world, they call that a utility man.

    Speaker 2 (00:50:33):

    That was a utility who was needed. Exactly. Yeah. So did a lot of traveling, uh, doing that. And the furthest I would, the best gig was going to Washington DC and filling in at the Washington Bureau. That was really interesting. Did that, did my standups in front of the White House. No kidding. That was kind of fun.

    Speaker 3 (00:50:49):

    What were some of the big stories coming out of that?

    Speaker 2 (00:50:51):

    It was the Iran Contra scandal. Wow. Ollie North and Gun, uh, Yeah.

    Speaker 3 (00:50:58):

    Guns for, you know, Reagan denied it, but it was,

    Speaker 2 (00:51:04):

    Well it was actually, I don't, I'm losing track of my eras here because, uh, George Bush Sr. Was president. Yeah. Uh, at the time Reagan Oh, okay. Was gone. And I can't remember what scandal it was. There was an Iran scandal at the time, cuz I still remember that vividly. Yeah, yeah. But I can't remember exactly, uh, what the details were. But, um, this was also the time when the, uh, the birth of the independent film and television industry was coming on, on stream. CBC was no longer gonna be doing all their productions in house. They wanted to get rid of everybody and hire them back at a lower cost as freelancing contract on contract. So this huge wave was happening of layoffs, but also technology was becoming cheaper and more accessible. So the independent film and television industry in Canada really started around 1993. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And, uh, in 1995 is when I set up my company in ballon around entertainment, uh, to produce content, which I sold back to the cbc.

    Speaker 3 (00:52:12):

    And your first show was,

    Speaker 2 (00:52:15):

    It was a show called Cottage Country.

    Speaker 3 (00:52:17):

    I remember that. Well,

    Speaker 2 (00:52:19):

    We ended up doing that show for Nine Seasons, 121 episodes.

    Speaker 3 (00:52:25):

    Amazing.

    Speaker 2 (00:52:26):

    Took a lot of out of me, uh, uh, including my marriage because I was hosting the show with my ex-wife or with my wife at the time and mm-hmm. <affirmative> and, uh, I never, Not a good idea. Not a good idea. Not a good idea. But, uh, and I, I think I had good reasons to do it because I said, Well, I wanna spend more time in the outdoors exploring Canada and more time at the cottage. Yeah. And so it was back in the day again, there was no specialty TV at the time and this was just the cbc. Yeah. So we were getting, you know, a hundred, 200,000, 300,000 viewers a weekend for our show was huge. We would get mail bags every week of people writing in for recipes and Yeah. And things like that. So it was the

    Speaker 3 (00:53:06):

    Cottage, the cottage zeitgeist in Canada. It

    Speaker 2 (00:53:09):

    Just started. Yeah.

    Speaker 3 (00:53:10):

    You

    Speaker 2 (00:53:10):

    Know? Yeah. So it was a magazine show. So by a magazine show, just like a print magazine, you'd have different Yeah. Things. So we had a feature, we had a cooking segment, we had a handyman segment,

    Speaker 3 (00:53:21):

    We had a How pitch the Boathouse.

    Speaker 2 (00:53:22):

    We had a humor segment. Yeah. So it was a formula show, but, uh, we kept it going for nine years. That was nine years of my life.

    Speaker 3 (00:53:30):

    You were with it how many years?

    Speaker 2 (00:53:31):

    All

    Speaker 3 (00:53:32):

    Years. Yeah. But you were the

    Speaker 2 (00:53:34):

    I hosted for the first, first two years. Yeah. And I hosted it for the last year as well. Um, but I, I realized there was more fun and control behind the camera than on camera.

    Speaker 3 (00:53:46):

    Yeah. And that gave her the impetus to, to start your current journey in the documentary

    Speaker 2 (00:53:52):

    World. Well, yeah, because once you have, when you're doing uh, uh, that many episodes a year, you get a lot of experience and how to raise money and how to do budgets and how to produce something. And then I got another show from CBC that they commissioned because of my first show cuz it was so popular. And then the, the fellow who was the boss of, um, CBC at the time in Ottawa, uh, moved, uh, lured away by Michael McMillin, who alliances Latis, and at the beginning of the specialty craze, and he started a channel called History. Wow. History, History Television. And so I started pitching shows to history and mm-hmm. <affirmative>, uh, did shows the documentaries for them, um, in the old style of documentaries when you do narration,

    Speaker 3 (00:54:40):

    Voiceover,

    Speaker 2 (00:54:41):

    Voiceover. And did a series, uh, for a food network when they got started. And Home and Garden tv, which actually shot in Stratford called the Manic Organic. I

    Speaker 3 (00:54:52):

    Remember that

    Speaker 2 (00:54:53):

    Too. And then, uh, yeah, started doing a lot, uh, a lot more documentaries. And so it sort of was paired with the growth of specialty tv. There was a lot, there was an insatiable appetite for Absolutely. Film and tv and I knew how to make it. Yeah. Yeah. And yeah, I never planned it. It just just

    Speaker 3 (00:55:14):

    Happened. Now bringing us up to the current date, what are some of your pleasant and most successful documentaries you've made over the, the past 20 years?

    Speaker 2 (00:55:24):

    Well, because of the Stratford connection, I got to meet William Shatner mm-hmm. <affirmative>, because Bill started his career in Stratford on the stage of the Stratford Festival. And, uh, back in the mid two thousands, I had this brilliant idea to start a documentary festival in Stratford called Doc Fest Stratford. And Bill was just getting into the documentary world. He just made a documentary and, uh, I thought it'd be a good way of kicking off the festival and have a screening. Yeah. And, uh, through a friend who had worked with him, I called him up and he's not a guy. He's old school. He doesn't have an agent. He answers his own phone. Yeah. He is an assistant, but he, he takes his own calls. Yeah. And I found out that, um, from him that in the two or three decades that he'd been away from Stratford, nobody had ever invited him back on an official basis. Wow. He'd never been invited back. Wow. I was the first person to reach out and say, Hey Bill, I want to invite you to Stratford. So he jumped to the chance and he came up to Stratford on his own dime. And I put him up in, uh, nice accommodations and we screened his film at Doc Fest. I think this was in 2008 or 2009. Where was that film? William Shatner's. Gonzo Ballet.

    Speaker 3 (00:56:43):

    That's right.

    Speaker 2 (00:56:45):

    <laugh>. And he was, uh, you know, Bill's a multi-talented, uh, uh, uh, artist and performer. He did a spoken word album, um, uh, spoken Word album. And he decided he wanted to create a ballet to go along with it. So we worked with the Minneapolis Ballet Company and they made a documentary where they paired his spoken word ramblings in his poetry to dance. And he made a documentary. So, uh, he came up here. I remember seeing

    Speaker 3 (00:57:14):

    That.

    Speaker 2 (00:57:14):

    Yeah. It's a great little film. Yeah. And, uh, because he'd been away from Canada for so long, he didn't really realize that there was all sorts of money available to him as a Canadian Yeah. As a director and as a star. And said, Hey Bill, if you ever wanna do any movies, documentaries, come on up. Come on up. So he came up and we went around to broadcasters and we came up with, uh, a film. This was in 2011, I think, called The Captains. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Cause we were trying to come up with an idea. And we said, Well, I asked him what he wants to do. He said, Well, I really want to, I've never met the other captains of the other Star Treks. Right. Let's just go talk to them. And so we came up, uh, with the film called The Captains, where he would, uh, reflect on his life and career, but he'd also explore the impact that being a captain on Star Trek had on the four or five other actors who absolutely played the role. And this was back in the seventies after Star Trek got canceled. Uh, Bill went back to Summer Stock Theater. He didn't get Rich off Star Trek. And when this Star Trek fandom started coming up, he kind of poo-pooed it. He says that, that show ruined my life. I'm, I'm broke now and I'm typecast as, uh, uh, a Starship captain. And he did. And he kind of made fun of, of that show and didn't want to be involved. Didn't

    Speaker 3 (00:58:44):

    Want capitalize.

    Speaker 2 (00:58:45):

    He wasn't proud of it. Yeah. Right. He wasn't proud of it.

    Speaker 3 (00:58:47):

    I remember once I, I see. Saw him, I think it was this SNL script or skit, but, uh, an a avid Star Trek fan would just pour out his whole soul to Shaer and Shaer would look at him and said, Kid, Get a life.

    Speaker 2 (00:59:03):

    Exactly. <laugh>. Yeah. In fact, that became the name of Bill's book, Get A Life. Yeah. Um, he gradually, when the movies started coming out, the, the movies that were inspired by the original series, he started to realize, well, this is a good way of making a buck and the fandom start. But it wasn't really until, um, um, Star Trek, the Next Generation with Patrick Stewart mm-hmm. <affirmative> that the franchise really Yeah. Became sustainable. Yeah. And when Patrick, uh, we interviewed Patrick Stewart in England, um, when Patrick, Cuz Patrick has a Shakespeare background, just like Bill. Sure. Sure. And when Patrick told Bill that he entered the, the Star Trek, The Next Generation with Skepticism, Oh, this will last for a season. I'll go to something else. Yeah. Patrick really realized the power of television to convey stories in a meaningful and purposeful way. Yeah. And that revelation from, from Patrick elicited a response from Bill that gave Bill a moment of pause and reflection to realize that what he did back in the sixties with Star Trek, really did have value and he should diminish his, his talent because of it. So, and

    Speaker 3 (01:00:19):

    With the recent passing of, of the black woman who played, uh,

    Speaker 2 (01:00:25):

    Shaun Nichols

    Speaker 3 (01:00:25):

    On Star Trek, they had made a big point in her, in her Obi to say that she and Shaer kissed on an episode of Star Trek,

    Speaker 2 (01:00:35):

    The first interracial kiss.

    Speaker 3 (01:00:36):

    Yeah. Which was, you know, I mean, back then it was big news.

    Speaker 2 (01:00:40):

    Well, they had to, the Southern stations, uh, asked, uh, Gene Roddenberry to shoot an alternate version. Uh, and they said, Okay, well shoot an alternate version. But, uh, they conspired Bill and, and Michelle conspired to do something that they couldn't use. They flubbed their lines or something. And so it went into all the stations.

    Speaker 3 (01:01:00):

    Yeah. Good for them.

    Speaker 2 (01:01:02):

    But it's interesting around the captains, because anybody who knows Bill, he's a, he's a very, um, he's a workaholic. Yeah. He's very direct and he's very interesting character. He is, is, uh,

    Speaker 3 (01:01:16):

    You made another very successful documentary with him. Well,

    Speaker 2 (01:01:19):

    I wanted to st tell this story about the, so we were out shopping this captain's idea around to the different broadcasters and we wrote at the b TV festival, and Bill had just had a hip operation or, uh, some sort of operation where he got a metal rod or something put in his hip. And uh, he was flying home from Calgary International Airport back to Los Angeles. And he went through the metal detector and it went off. And, uh, you know, the gentleman who was the security guard was from South Asia, from India, no knowledge of who this guy was. And Bill is from that era where, you know, you treat movie stars and TV stars with a lot of respect. And he felt disrespected and he got sent to secondary inspection. You know, don't you know who I am kind of thing. Yeah. And, uh, so a few weeks later I'm down at Bill's, um, horse, uh, ranch in, in Los Angeles, planning out the shoot for the Captains cuz we'd were successful at BFF and got a broadcaster and we were ready to start going.

    Speaker 2 (01:02:25):

    And we're sitting around at a picnic table outside of its tables and he said, Craig got some bad news for you. I'm not flying commercial. So we had everything budgeted and lined up. I had all the money, uh, organized for flights and stuff like that. And, uh, anybody who knows private aviation, you can eat up a lot of money with one flight. Oh yeah. And so it was gonna derail the whole project. So I started, you know, pulling things, uh, outta the thin air to try to solve the, the problem cuz it would've cost almost the cost of the entire budget to fly 'em around. And so, uh, the first thing we did, Well Bill, don't you, uh, have shares in Priceline? Uh, yeah, I do. Let's call a marketing director of Priceline. So we call the marketing director at that moment of Priceline and say, Hey, listen, we have a problem.

    Speaker 2 (01:03:18):

    Bill doesn't wanna fly commercial. Can we borrow one of your planes, uh, to fly around? Cuz the Captains were in New York. Patrick Stewart was in England. We had to do all of this stuff in four or five days, I think. Was it? Yeah. We'd have to fly there cuz Bill was there. But we had to fly all over the place. And the fellow from Priceline, the president of Priceline, said, Let me get back to you. And so he called us back a little while later saying, You know, as much as we love Bill and appreciate Bill's involvement, our company, it's gonna exceed our marketing budget. No thanks. So I had done a series called Cottage Country back in Canada mm-hmm. <affirmative>, uh, for several years. And one of the sponsors was Bombardier cdu. And the fellow who was president of the Recreational Products division, I believe his name is Lauren Bwa, uh, at the time, went on to head up the, uh, aviation division.

    Speaker 2 (01:04:13):

    So I called him his assistant, outta the blue. I said, You may not remember me, but like 15 years ago you sponsored a little TV show that I did called The Cottage Country. And now I'm doing this thing with William Shatner. We have a problem on our hands. So Laura, uh, Bwin passed the baton to one of his, uh, executives, uh, who is running the private jet division. And, uh, the gentleman, uh, calls us up and I explain, we have to get Bill Bill's given us five days or six days of his schedule. We have to get this film done in six days. He needs to be picked up in Burbank, pick our crew up in Toronto, fly to Cambridge, England to meet Patrick Stewart, then fly to New York City to meet Kate Mulgrew, then to go to New Jersey to, to meet Avery Brooks, uh, and then fly Bill and his wife back to their ranch in Kentucky. And, uh, he said, Okay, what day do you need the jet? And we'll have it ready for you. So Bombardier gave us a, a corporate jet. They paid for the fuel, everything. What kind of plane was it? Challenge, like, uh, it was like a challenger jet, like a 10 12 seater executive jet.

    Speaker 3 (01:05:23):

    What did they get out of

    Speaker 2 (01:05:24):

    The deal? Well, I'll tell you. Uh, so anyway, they picked Bill up in Burbank. They picked us up in England, uh, in Toronto. We flew to England, uh, that very day. We drove to Patrick Stewart's house and did the interview. It was really rushed. We did that. We then we stayed overnight one night, uh, and then flew back to New York. It was, uh, the July 4th weekend, uh, in New York. And it was the holiday weekend, uh, in New York, 102 degrees. And we had to film with Bill, uh, and Kate Mulgrew. And then we drove over to New Jersey, interviewed Avery Brooks, and then Bill went off to, um, to Kentucky. So what did Bombard get outta it? Well, Bombardier, uh, uh, needed a celebrity ambassador for its brand. So, um, Bill, we put Bombardier in the film. We had a film, a scene with the president of Bombardier Greeting Bill at the, uh, Toronto International Airport. And we made the airplane part of the documentary cuz it was the, the airplane saved the film, otherwise we wouldn't have a documentary. Absolutely. And then after that, Bill, uh, got hired by Bombard J to do some motivational speeches and do some customer appreciation of it in price line

    Speaker 2 (01:06:36):

    In addition to Priceline. My God. Well, Priceline is a, is a consumer, uh, was a consumer website for, for the early travel bookings, whereas Bombard Aviation was selling private jets to individuals. Yeah. Yeah. Priceline just had their own jet for their own marketing purposes. But

    Speaker 3 (01:06:53):

    I know, and when we went to Northern Ireland, the, uh, I forget the name of the company that built the Titanic, but they're still there, but it's Bombardier that, that is working there.

    Speaker 2 (01:07:05):

    Yeah. So Bombardier, uh, saved the, saved the film and, uh, the film did very well. We sold it to Netflix all over the world and did very well. And that led to a follow up film with Patrick Stewart, uh, on Star Trek, The Next Generation Yeah. Called Chaos on the Bridge. Yeah. And then that led to, uh, another film where I, which I wanted to do around the anniversary of Star Trek. Never happened on the anniversary because took too long to, for the broadcasters to make up their mind. But we called the film, The Truth Is In the Stars, and the premise of that documentary was to transport the viewer into the era of Star Trek mm-hmm. <affirmative> 250 years from now mm-hmm. <affirmative> when it was set mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And imagine how we might be looking back on the time we're living right now. So in order to tell that story, uh, we decided that we would get Bill in front of the leading minds and thinkers in the world Yes. Uh, of the day. Um, we ended up with fewer than we'd agreed to. We had a lot of people who had said yes and we couldn't fit them into the film. But, uh, we ended up, uh, interviewing Whoopi Goldberg, uh, who was in Star Trek, the Next Generation mm-hmm. <affirmative>, who was inspired by Michelle Nichols. Uh, in, in that role we interviewed, uh, Seth McFarland, who created Family Guy. But Seth McFarland is also the producer of Cosmos, the series on pbs, or it's on National Geographic now. And

    Speaker 3 (01:08:38):

    He was a huge Star

    Speaker 2 (01:08:38):

    Trek fan. Huge Star Trek science fiction fan. Yeah. Uh, we interviewed Neil Degrass Tyson from the Hayden Observatory right. In New York. Uh, Jason Alexander, uh, from Seinfeld, who also started on Star Trek, worked on Star Trek, uh, in a number of episodes. Uh, who else? Chris Hatfield, the astronaut. Yeah, yeah. Who Bill had spoken to when Chris was up at the Space Station, uh, uh, David Suzuki, uh, talking about the environmental aspect. Yeah. But the icing on the cake was the chance to meet Steven Hawking. And that was the almost never happened. It, it, it was not on, was on talking.

    Speaker 3 (01:09:20):

    It's one of his last interviews, I

    Speaker 2 (01:09:22):

    Believe one of his last interviews. He died like six months later. Yeah. But it was a really, What was that like? It was a delicate negotiation because first of all, uh, Steven Hawking doesn't do interviews. You have to submit the questions in advance

    Speaker 3 (01:09:36):

    Because he has to prepare the answer.

    Speaker 2 (01:09:38):

    Absolutely. Yeah. So I worked, uh, my tail off to convince them to do this. And then, then they said no, if at first, and I said, Okay, I'm in Canada. Can I come to England next weekend to sit down and explain this film to you? And if you're willing to come to England, you can come and and meet Steven and meet us. So I flew to England, uh, on a, This

    Speaker 3 (01:10:03):

    Was before the filming?

    Speaker 2 (01:10:04):

    Yeah, this is like in 2016 I think, or fifth earlier. Yeah, it was in, it was a few, it was in July, I believe, July of 2016. So I flew over to Heathrow, uh, rented a car, went up to Cambridge, um, met his team at Cambridge University and his office. And I said it was a typical university professor's office. Yeah. It wasn't big enough and it wasn't that exciting. And I said, Really, this is Bill meeting Steven for the first time. Yeah. Can we please go to his house? And so they talked to Steven and Steven said Yes and send him over. So I went over for lunch to Steven Hawkings house, which was just across campus. Why

    Speaker 3 (01:10:46):

    Do you think he finally said yes to this?

    Speaker 2 (01:10:48):

    Because I had a chance to sit down with him face to face and it was like a monologue cuz he can't answer, he can answer, you know, pleasantries. Yeah. And saying thank you so much,

    Speaker 3 (01:10:58):

    The voice recorder that

    Speaker 2 (01:10:59):

    Best of luck with the project was what he said to me. Yeah. Um, so I sat there, His assistants were there too. So I was talking to two or three of them as we were having lunch at a table no bigger than this, in his, in his house. And I told him him why I wanted to make the film and why Bill wanted to meet him. The good thing was Stephen Hawking was a huge Star Trek fan. Yes. And Stephen Hawking had actually been on an episode of Star Trek, the next generation, uh, playing a poker game with, uh, Isaac Newton, Albert Einstein. Wow. Yeah. So, and also Hawking had been in the Vomit Comet, you know, the plane. We asked about train and he'd never met William Shatner and admired him and agreed to to be interviewed. So what happened was we had to develop the list of questions mm-hmm.

    Speaker 2 (01:11:50):

    <affirmative>, uh, which I sent over like a month in advance, six weeks in advance. We only could ask eight questions because of the time involved for him to do the answers. So we really had a tough time, uh, coming up with the questions. We ended up sending over more questions and we get there, uh, we fly over with Bill a few weeks later and, uh, we take Bill around Cambridge University and do a beautiful thing. And then we go to the house and we were told we'd get an hour with Steven Hawking. Well, it ended up being four hours. Wow. Because unbeknownst to us, Steven Hawking had prepared questions for Bill. So after Bill had asked all his questions Yeah. Uh, uh, Steven started asking questions, uh, of, of Bill, and it got into this, it went on and on and on. Yeah. And at the end, as we were wrapping up, Steven had a, had a real sense of humor. And, uh, as there was saying Good goodbye, uh, on camera, uh, uh, Steven said, Bill, would you like to stay for dinner? <laugh> So, so Bill, uh,

    Speaker 3 (01:13:02):

    I'd

    Speaker 2 (01:13:03):

    Love to. So Bill actually stayed for dinner. He invited, I was invited to go along as well, but I chose not to. I thought it was better for Bill just to go there. Yeah. But Bill was really nervous because, uh, um, there was this interaction that was prepared Yeah. For the interview. Yeah. And he said to Craig, What am I gonna, what am I gonna do?

    Speaker 3 (01:13:22):

    Because at this point, Steven Hawking couldn't speak, I believe,

    Speaker 2 (01:13:25):

    Couldn't speak. It was all computerized. Yeah. And I said to Bill, Bill was doing this one man show at the time. I said, Bill, just pretend it's your one man show to an audience of one Yeah. And just talk.

    Speaker 3 (01:13:34):

    Yeah. And that's what

    Speaker 2 (01:13:36):

    Happened. That's what happened. And so the next morning I said to Bill, How'd it go? He said, I, I talked for three hours straight, uh, talking to this guy. And we had lamb stew. And it was just wonderful. And, uh, I think for Bill, it was one of the most moving experiences of, of his life.

    Speaker 3 (01:13:53):

    I remember seeing that segment. Not, not the dinner, but the, and he was so, he was so taken with his, with, with Steven Hawking's presence. Yeah.

    Speaker 2 (01:14:04):

    But we all were like, of all the people I've ever met in my career, having a chance to spend not one day, but two days with Steven Honking one on one was like incredible. Yeah. And it was just, I can imagine It was, uh, wonderful. So that also sold on Netflix around the world, and it kind of put us into a different league. So since that time we've been able to work with a lot of Hollywood brands and entertainment Yeah. Franchises and, and celebrities. And because of those films I did, uh, with Bill, it opened the door to, for example, working with Alex tbe. Yes. Because Alex, uh, knew Game Changers new Bill and new the Captains. And, and so I wanted to do the same kind of thing with Alex that we did with Bill and the Captains. Yeah. Uh, where we're not doing a superficial look. We're going behind pop culture to see what the relationship is between pop culture and, uh, in whether it impacts society, how it influenced society, the, the relationship giving, you know, what we might think is fluff, uh, some credibility. Yeah. And game shows were always ridiculed as being odds, time wasting stuff. Yeah. But with Game Changers, we, we did the same thing we did with Bill with Captains, where we went into the underlying motivation of the men and

    Speaker 3 (01:15:27):

    Spoke with a lot of

    Speaker 2 (01:15:28):

    The men and women who

    Speaker 3 (01:15:29):

    Iconic personalities in game shows

    Speaker 2 (01:15:32):

    Yeah. To

    Speaker 3 (01:15:32):

    Find out Mud Hall and

    Speaker 2 (01:15:34):

    Yeah. Vanna White, Pat Sja. Yeah. Howie Mandel, all those people. Not to celebrate the celebrity part of it, but just to get the true meaning of what it meant to them. Absolutely. And the, it was a very powerful, uh, powerful film. Yeah. And, uh, recently I was talking to Alex's, uh, wife, um, Jean, and she said Alex was really proud of that film Yeah. And really, uh, really enjoyed working on it. So, Well,

    Speaker 3 (01:16:01):

    It was a great retrospect because I think you began with the very earliest of game shows. That's

    Speaker 2 (01:16:06):

    Right. In the 1940s. And we got there at the right time because since we, uh, since we filmed, many of them have passed away. Hall Mon Hall Alex passed away. Kennedy,

    Speaker 3 (01:16:16):

    I believe, uh,

    Speaker 2 (01:16:17):

    Tom Kennedy. Tom

    Speaker 3 (01:16:19):

    Kennedy, Yeah.

    Speaker 2 (01:16:19):

    Yeah, Yeah. A lot of them had that's had passed away. So we're very lucky, uh, to be able to get that. Absolutely. And, uh, then, um, we, uh, kind of stopped doing that because the pandemic, uh, hit. Yeah. But just prior to the Pandemic, we were working in China, uh, and we're working on a film with Cir du Sole in China, which we luckily got finished. Yes. Just in time because in January, 2020, the show got shut down and we had just finished filming in the fall. And, uh,

    Speaker 3 (01:16:52):

    Is it, is it up and running again?

    Speaker 2 (01:16:54):

    It's up and running. And a very different guys, because when the pandemic hit, uh, half the acrobats who were from foreign countries left China Yeah. Yeah. To go back to their home countries and they couldn't get back in because China stopped issuing visas. Yeah. And so the show, uh, changed title. It changed format and it, but

    Speaker 3 (01:17:15):

    It's still running.

    Speaker 2 (01:17:16):

    It's not a CRC Dule show anymore. It's not, No, it's Crc Dule is not involved. Wow. Because they don't have anybody representing them in China. And, uh, it's, they can't manage the creative. Uh, so it's not their show anymore. They walked away. No. And of course, Cir Dule, like a lot of performing arts companies, were devastated by the shutdown. And Cir Dule is now focusing on its Las Vegas resident shows and its tent shows trying to get their now revenue back up again. You apparently

    Speaker 3 (01:17:45):

    Just saw Cir Du Sole

    Speaker 2 (01:17:47):

    I saw in Montreal show Coza, uh, recently just to, it's an older show. It's 15 years old, but they're using their, their, their legacy shows like Alleg, Allegria and Za to build up their revenue. Where

    Speaker 3 (01:18:01):

    Are they performing? It is it

    Speaker 2 (01:18:02):

    Intense, Intense in the big top, but they're traveling across Canada this year doing, doing that show. Yeah. So China has figured prominently in my career recently. And yes, we your

    Speaker 3 (01:18:13):

    Personal life as

    Speaker 2 (01:18:14):

    Well. Yeah. We, uh, my wife's Chinese, um, we did, uh, film also in China following doctors in the footsteps of Norman Bethune, which we just finished. And then, um, we did a film in Wuhan just after the pandemic started. And we were the first Western crew, uh, western team to be able to, You

    Speaker 3 (01:18:36):

    Filmed in Wuhan,

    Speaker 2 (01:18:37):

    I believe under, um, we did it remotely. We smuggled a camera into Wuhan and got a Canadian who lived there. Take us out into the street.

    Speaker 3 (01:18:45):

    It seems the, the, you know, kind of golden thread through your career was the ability to get things done against all odds. Uh, you know, the, the jet plane, getting a jet plane to fly, uh, chater around, uh, landing jobs that got you in Northern Ireland. And, uh, I mean, being a documentary producer is, as I'm sure it's like being peck to death by a thousand ducks as the expression goes. But you manage to, uh, persevere and, and survive.

    Speaker 2 (01:19:23):

    Well, I think it's because of the news, uh, background. When you're sent out to do a news story, you have to come back with a news story and you can't take no for an answer. Yeah. You have to overcome all of the problems that you encounter in the field. Yeah. And if you don't come back that you don't have a job. Yeah. Uh, it'll come back with a story. You don't have a job. Yeah. Um, so you have to always think on your feet. The other thing news taught me was to write and edit in my head, because when you are doing your standup, you're, you're maybe writing from rough notes on paper. Yeah. But you have to script yourself live. Yeah. And you have to shoot as if you're editing because you have an hour or two to edit your piece, uh, when you get back to the shop.

    Speaker 3 (01:20:06):

    That's always, to me, that's been a, a, a talent from news people that I, I really envy is to stand in front of a camera and extemporaneously speak about a situation without a script. But it all seems so together and so, so edited, you know, But you're doing it as you say in your head.

    Speaker 2 (01:20:25):

    Yeah. It's just, it's training. And I've used that in, in China, cause I've been to China a lot over the last 10 years. And there's a, um, uh, we got an award last weekend in Montreal for our film footsteps in Beth Yoon, uh, Best Director Award. And which is sitting there on the, on the desk that gold trophy. And the reason we got, uh, that award was because we didn't take no for an answer, even from the Chinese when we went there, because we were sanctioned or given permission by the Chinese consulate in Montreal to do this film following Montreal doctors. But there are different levels of government in China, and some are more sensitive than the others. So the places we were going following in the footsteps of Norman Bethune are sensitive politically, militarily, and Yeah. And culturally, and they don't really encourage foreigners to go to these places, let alone foreigners with a film group.

    Speaker 2 (01:21:23):

    Yeah. Yeah. So we, uh, we're not allowed to go to these places, but we showed up anyway. So in the one place, <laugh>. Yeah. This is the, this is the funny story, and this is why I think I got the best direction. We got the best Direction awards because we didn't take No, but Norman Bethune in 1953, his body was transferred to a bigger city called Sja J, which is a major military, uh, city just outside of Beijing as a big military cemetery. And, uh, we were told prior to arriving that we couldn't go there. But there's nobody preventing you from comping on a plane and booking a hotel and going there. So we showed up at the hotel and, uh, camera

    Speaker 3 (01:22:04):

    In hand

    Speaker 2 (01:22:05):

    Well, where cameras were packed away. Yeah. And, uh, the police called our local, our our producer, our Chinese producer who was with us. And, and the hotel answered to the police said, No, no, these are nice people. They're here from Canada. They're doing a nice story. And so what happened was, instead of, uh, kicking us out of the city, they went the extra length, um, because we said we were sanctioned by the consulate. Yeah. They didn't want to, they take our word for it and get in trouble for preventing us. Yeah. Cause this is the main, this is where Norman Bethune is buried. We can't finish the film without this scene. And the other complication was, it was the day before October 1st, which was the seventies anniversary of the Communist Party of China. So it was a very sensitive time in a sensitive city. So what they did was they sent these two young PR people down from the local government and they closed the museum, and the graveyard allowed us in for a couple of hours to get all the footage we want, and then helped us carry our bags back to the train and ensured that we got back on the train to, to Beijing.

    Speaker 2 (01:23:07):

    But, uh, Interesting. Without that scene, we wouldn't have had the closing scenes of the, the film. And you just can't Yeah. Without risking your life. Of course, I would never do that. Right. But you have to find a way always to get what you need to make your film. And most people don't understand that because most people, some people might think it's pushy. Yeah. But it's not. You're, you're actually getting what you need to do your job. And if you didn't, you're not gonna have, have what you need to make the film.

    Speaker 3 (01:23:40):

    Craig Thompson Know is not an option. <laugh>.

    Speaker 2 (01:23:44):

    I don't think of it that way though. I just, I I know what I wanna see on the screen and you just have to Sure. Do it. And here we are now, our our company has celebrated its 27th anniversary a few weeks ago, and, uh, we're still trying to find our way. It's still not easy. No. But, uh,

    Speaker 3 (01:24:02):

    If it was easy, everyone would be

    Speaker 2 (01:24:04):

    Doing it. That's right. But, uh, anyway, it's been great chatting with myself.

    Speaker 3 (01:24:09):

    Yes. It's very enlight. I've learned things about you that I, I didn't know. Uh, so congratulations.

    Speaker 2 (01:24:17):

    Well, thank you. I'm not, uh, I'm not Michael Moore. I can't talk to myself for an hour, but I really am grateful for you, uh, to be my foil.

    Speaker 3 (01:24:27):

    It's been my

    Speaker 2 (01:24:28):

    Pleasure. Is that the word foil? My, uh, my Shakespeare term? Uh,

    Speaker 3 (01:24:32):

    Your biographer

    Speaker 2 (01:24:34):

    <laugh>. Rick, thanks a lot. Uh, my pleasure for allowing me to be my guest. Uh, yes. On my own guest, on my own podcast.

    Speaker 3 (01:24:41):

    And it does quack like a duck.

    Speaker 2 (01:24:44):

    Thanks a lot.

    Speaker 1 (01:24:46):

    You've been listening to the Stratford Slice with Craig Thompson. For more episodes, check out our website, the stratford slice.com, and be sure to subscribe. The Stratford slice is produced by Ballon Ran Entertainment, Southwestern Ontario's number one digital media studio. If you have a great story to tell and want to be on the podcast, please reach out to us through our website, the stratford slice.com.

  • Speaker 1 (00:00):

    The following is a podcast from Be and Ray Entertainment.

    Speaker 2 (00:06):

    Hi, it's Craig Thompson, and this is the Stratford slice. Today on the Stratford slice, our very own field of dreams, everyone thinks of Stratford as either a theater town or a hockey town, but an actual fact it's also a baseball town. And someone who knows a lot about that is my friend. And, uh, someone I've known for a long, long time as Kevin Acheson. Kevin, welcome to the Stratford Slice.

    Speaker 3 (00:51):

    Thank you so much. Thanks for having me today.

    Speaker 2 (00:53):

    Do you agree that Stratford is a hockey town or is it a baseball town, or is it a bit of both?

    Speaker 3 (00:58):

    It's definitely a hockey town, but I think if we kind of try trace the history back to the, the old crawlers and the cnr, that there's been some great baseball teams that have played in this town.

    Speaker 2 (01:10):

    And of course, down the road in St. Mary's, we have the Baseball Hall of Fame. So what's that connection to baseball history that gives us, uh, the roots of baseball in this area?

    Speaker 3 (01:19):

    That's amazing. The, you know, the history goes back to, um, you know, a long time where everyone kind of claims that they've had the first baseball game played in their country, But in fact, it was, uh, it was in Canada, in Ontario, of course. So every year it impresses me how many people they can get coming to their, their, uh, events, um, golf tournaments, they have their own induction ceremonies. It's quite a thing if anyone hasn't visited it.

    Speaker 2 (01:49):

    And everywhere, back when we were growing up, every corner of every spare field, just like in field of dreams, you'd see a baseball field with a backstop. And it was a game that everybody would just pick up and play, uh, after school or on weekends. It

    Speaker 3 (02:02):

    Used to be I lived on Douglas Street right near a Avon school, and that was our, our pickup place. We'd play, uh, we'd play games at the, at the side where they had kind of a short fence on onto short fence onto John Street, and once you got a little bit bigger, you'd go around the corner and you'd play pickup on, uh, Charles Street.

    Speaker 2 (02:22):

    And the Intercounty Baseball League was really, really big in the seventies and eighties. Tell us how you got introduced to more of the competitive side of baseball versus the recreational.

    Speaker 3 (02:32):

    Well, Stratford, I had a really good product here in the, in the seventies and eighties, as you said. Um, I was born in 60, so I was eligible to play junior baseball in 77, 78, and they used to treat us real well, where they'd take some of the better kids and, you know, just kind of introduct them to the senior baseball and tell, you know, let them play a little bit, let them run, let them hit every once in a while. And it was a great introduction to senior baseball. You were, you play every night, so of course you got better a whole lot quicker. Um, Dennis Schooley did an incredible job back in the day. Um, I'm sure he is too, if there was a team here today. But we had such a good nucleus of, uh, of talent in, in Stratford. We could, we could field a infield, outfield. We always had to, uh, rely on, uh, bringing in pitchers from California or all over the place. But we had some nice connections as well for that.

    Speaker 2 (03:27):

    We had some big names, obviously going back to how Marins in the hockey world and in the baseball world, we had Larry Landreth going to the Montreal Expos. Was he a tell us about him and was he a bit of a, a, a mentor or someone to look up to for you?

    Speaker 3 (03:42):

    Well, he cert uh, because he was a pitcher. Um, I'll say no, other than, you know, you're always proud of the Stratford people, and he did well. I never really got a chance to play with him until he came back from his professional career. And at that point, he didn't pitch a lot. He played position, he was a very good hitter as well. And I don't know that a lot of people knew that, that, uh, he was an exceptional pitcher, but he was also a good hitter when he came back.

    Speaker 2 (04:07):

    Now you're an outfielder. So tell me what happened to you after high school. You got, uh, some notice. Tell us how that came about. Yeah,

    Speaker 3 (04:16):

    After, um, high school, uh, Toronto was actively attending some games. Uh, it was taken to the, the old exhibition stadium. This

    Speaker 2 (04:25):

    Is the Toronto Blue Jays, Toronto Blue Jays. And how many, where was this in terms of their, their opening in Canada? How, what year did they start in Canada?

    Speaker 3 (04:33):

    I wanna say 77. Was that I I

    Speaker 2 (04:38):

    Might be late seventies. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So this is shortly after they expanded. Yeah,

    Speaker 3 (04:42):

    That's exactly right. This would've been 79 that I was down for a tryout and, um, batting practice. I was all jacked out. We hit about four or five out of the park, and I was never a power hitter. So that, uh, and then we, we did some timed 40 yard dashes, and then we did, um, some outfield play where I got to fire some balls into third base just as they were getting their, their, um, batting practice going. And then I was taken from there into the office and offered me a, a contract at that point. But I had already signed to attend, uh, junior college in Arizona. So I, I passed on that first initial offer.

    Speaker 2 (05:22):

    So you turned down the Blue Jays to go to school? I

    Speaker 3 (05:25):

    Did a two year school, and I'm not sure that there, I'm not sure what the difference would've been, but I think I really learned a lot in, in, uh, college.

    Speaker 2 (05:34):

    So what happened after you went to Arizona? You were still getting some attention. Tell us what you did in the field also, I wanna know what you did academically there too.

    Speaker 3 (05:43):

    Um, business administration is what, uh, what I, uh, took at school. I had, I put two years in there. They, they can't, Canadians couldn't get drafted at the time in the, uh, major league baseball draft. It, it, that came along a little bit later. So they had to sign you as a free agent. So I had signed a letter of intent after, uh, Arizona to go to, um, University of Texas El Paso. Um, but at my last game was a, uh, Philadelphia Philly scout, and we went out to dinner. It was a little bit nervous, so my coach came with me and he kind of acted as my agent. And, um, so we left that night. He said, Don't make any decisions, let's just kind of see what he has to offer. So he offered me a bit of a signing bonus, and we knew that Toronto was always interested and our coach, my coach knew that, uh, California Angels were interested as well. So we kind of got in touch the next day with all three teams and we kind of threw out a number and Toronto was able to kind of match the Phillies offer. So I decided just because I was a local kid, in hindsight, it was probably not the right thing to do because Toronto was so strong in the outfield, but signed with Toronto and, uh, and, uh, shortly thereafter ended up in the, uh, Pioneer League in Medicine at,

    Speaker 2 (06:58):

    So why do you say if there were strong in the outfield that you couldn't make your mark well enough? Is that

    Speaker 3 (07:04):

    Right? They just were the, they were young and there, so Bell Barfield in, uh, Mosby, that was their outfield at, kind of, at the time. So they just were so good for so long. So every year they keep drafting players and once,

    Speaker 2 (07:20):

    You know, they didn't need anybody.

    Speaker 3 (07:22):

    They, they did not, they needed, like, you know, they had like Ron Shepherd and Mitch Webster, like a couple guys that, uh, were kind of, that could play in the big leagues, but they were like, that played that, uh, you know, role that would give them a day off or something, but they, they just were so good for

    Speaker 2 (07:38):

    So long. But had you gone with another decision that had a weaker outfield, you think you might have gotten more of a opportunity?

    Speaker 3 (07:44):

    I, I think I would've, I I, I always think that I would've, my, my only regret is I never got to playing triple A because I think once the, the pitchings, the pitching in, in rookie ball in single, everybody throws hard, but they have no, they have no idea where the strike zone is pretty much. And they, they've got like one or two good pitches, you know, as you get closer to, you know, double a triple A pitchers, you know, two or three good pitches, but they're a little bit more around the plate. And I was always a free swinger. I kind of got myself into trouble by always swing, you know, at everything I needed to. Yeah. Kind of define my strikes a little bit more, but I think I, that that's kind of where I wish I, you know, I, I'm not sure there, I said there, there's a difference between being good and being great. Yeah. And I needed to be great, but I was just good. So there's, there's that fine line there that, uh, but still it would've been fun to, I, I, I did well for as long as I could and then I knew it was time to get back to Stratford

    Speaker 2 (08:45):

    And do something else. Find

    Speaker 3 (08:46):

    A job. Yeah.

    Speaker 2 (08:47):

    Yeah. And you had a business administration background, but you decided to join the fire department?

    Speaker 3 (08:52):

    Well, that was, yeah, I think, think I just kind of caught myself short of like when all my friends were getting educated, you know, I, I kind of chose baseball as like, that was five years of my life that I kind of lost where I should have been in school finishing up. So a a two year degree really wasn't gonna get me much at that time. And now I did work at Deel, Milkman Haggy when I was home in the summers and, and things like that to keep my business, um, you know, keep my mind sharp. But, um, yeah, I was just looking for anything I had by the time I got home, I had, uh, I was married and had had one child, so I really had to, uh, find something that kind of made me some money.

    Speaker 2 (09:31):

    And on the physical athleticism side, the firefighting department would've been a good match cuz you were in pretty good shape, I imagine

    Speaker 3 (09:38):

    For sure, for sure. That, that I applied for five years. One, I got home at 26 and I didn't get the job till I was over 30, so, Oh, wow. I, they had hirings every year. I just wasn't able to kind of make the grade that all, all of a sudden I was, I, I worked at the arena. So I think, uh, the fire chief Sid Creek could see me, uh, in action there, knew I worked hard because he was on the col executive at the time and he always called those guys a a lazy bunch of people. So I was always jumping and helping 'em. So I think it may have paid dividends.

    Speaker 2 (10:10):

    Getting back to baseball, I want to get a a, a sense, I'm a a little bit of a, a purist. I wouldn't count myself as a huge baseball fan, but I love going down to see the Jays now and again. But when I watch it on television, it's become so analyzed and scientific. You know, what I see on the other day, watching, uh, a game and everything is mapped out, is is it in the strike zone? Is it not? There's no guesswork ever involved. It, it doesn't seem to be as fun to watch anymore.

    Speaker 3 (10:39):

    <laugh> No, I've, I've posted on social media that like, please get rid of that box around the strike zone. I think that's what makes, that's what makes pitchers that the whole game should be learning what an umpire strike zone is for a pitcher. Right? Like they, they've, they've had the same umpires year after year after year. And, and hitters need to know what the umpire strikes on are as

    Speaker 2 (11:02):

    Well. It's the personality of the umpire. That's right. And the personality of the pitcher.

    Speaker 3 (11:05):

    We had that, we had that in the inner county. We had, you know, Jim Cressman from London. Like, he's like, everyone has their own personality. Exactly what you said. So yeah, it's really taken, you know, the whole money ball aspect of the game. It's, it's really changed it, but it's, uh, that's, that's what you need to succeed anymore. That's, that's the way of the world. So

    Speaker 2 (11:26):

    It's AI behind the plate, artificial intelligence. You don't need a human umpire anymore if you've got the

    Speaker 3 (11:32):

    Tv I, I'm fearful that that day is gonna come. I think they're trying it. And I think they had the first manager get kicked out of minor league baseball in the league where they've tried the, uh, artificial umpire

    Speaker 2 (11:42):

    Behind the plane. How do you argue with the artificial umpire?

    Speaker 3 (11:45):

    He was, I don't know, there was a little glitch in the system there and he was, uh, I think the balls and strikes were all over the place, but

    Speaker 2 (11:51):

    So what do you make of the, the Jays now and, and the baseball, uh, competitive, uh, baseball now. Who do you follow and what do you, uh, what do you see the Jays are doing? Uh, fairly well.

    Speaker 3 (12:04):

    Yeah, as surprised that the, um, I always thought that there was too much fooling around going on in the dugout. Like, I don't watch a lot of baseball either, but when I do watch the games, I know it's, it's, there's one thing to have fun, but you're a paid professional and there's gotta be a point where fun is not childish. So every team kind of has their own antics. When someone hits a home run, whether it's a shopping cart through the dugout or throwing sunflower seeds and even they celebrations after the game used to kind of win with integrity before, now it's like in the face of the other team, which I just don't, I don't understand why the game's kind of gone that way or how it's been allowed to

    Speaker 2 (12:43):

    Sort of poor sportsmen, like Yeah,

    Speaker 3 (12:44):

    Well it's tough to argue. Yeah. Like that's, in my mind, that's what it is. But

    Speaker 2 (12:50):

    Yeah, I think part of the reason is that we're used to hockey where it's so fast based, you're on the bench for five minutes or three minutes, whereas in baseball, you're sitting around in the dugout waiting and there's so much, you're, you're bored. You need to come up with some sort of entertainment looking

    Speaker 3 (13:03):

    For something to be excited about, for sure. Yeah. I, I don't, uh, I love, I love hockey. I don't, uh, I don't watch a lot of baseball, but playoff, I'm a playoff baseball fan for sure.

    Speaker 2 (13:16):

    And do you go down to see any of the, uh, uh, professional sports, uh, games? Either the Raptors or the Leafs or the, the Jays or Mostly on television? Mostly

    Speaker 3 (13:25):

    On television. I'll, I'll travel. We, we have a place near Sarnia, so I'll travel to, uh, Detroit to watch football. Uh, I'll go to Detroit to watch a baseball game. I think now I've got three grand sons, so I think that that's gonna change at some point soon that I'll be making the trek to Toronto, just cuz it is so close.

    Speaker 2 (13:46):

    Uh, Kevin, when we're recording this, we have a bit of a scandal in the hockey world. You know, we both grew up in the hockey growing up in small town Ontario. Everybody played in the backyard rinks, played in small house leagues, but we've, uh, a lot of things come out recently about this culture of hockey. Have you been following any of that in Hockey Canada and the junior teams and the attitudes that are, uh, coming outta the dressing rooms? Um,

    Speaker 3 (14:09):

    I have been, and it just, it it's, uh, it's, it's very surprising that it's caught a lot of people off guard and inside the government gets involved, you know, that there's, uh, there's some real big concerns. Um, I don't follow it enough to know, I just, I've kind of followed the, um, is it Rick Westhead?

    Speaker 2 (14:33):

    He from tsn? Yeah.

    Speaker 3 (14:34):

    He has done an exceptional job of kind of, um, keeping everybody informed as to kind of what's transpired, um, through the hockey world over the last year or so. And it's, it's just, it's, it's awful. Like we, our our children went to played, uh, my daughter played in, uh, uh, university in the states Union college, um, son played in the o l. So I know that there's always been scandals, but you just trust that the people in power are, are constantly doing the right things. But there's been, you know, whether it's the, been the gymnastic scandal, like it's just, there's, there's a lot of people have let a lot of people down.

    Speaker 2 (15:20):

    It's all coming out of the woodwork. Did you have any experiences when you were in baseball or hockey that might be questionable today? How was, how were you treated?

    Speaker 3 (15:30):

    Not, not, I can't even think of one instance when, uh, when I would've said that. I think, I think we had pretty thick skin, like we took a lot of abuse in the minor leagues, but, you know, a lot of it was well deserved. And, you know, I, I had a good coach that if you were in a bit of a slump, you'd say, Go get drunk tonight. Like, just

    Speaker 2 (15:51):

    Like, enjoy yourself, do

    Speaker 3 (15:52):

    Something different, right? Like you're putting way too much pressure on yourself. But there wasn't, there wasn't one instance that, uh, I could say that there was any, like, I had no question in my mind that I was treated very well.

    Speaker 1 (16:05):

    You're listening to the Stratford Slice with Craig Thompson. Check out our website, the stratford slice.com and be sure to subscribe. And now back to the show.

    Speaker 2 (16:17):

    Everything's about money today, Big money for players. Tell me about what the money was like in the minor leagues and how, uh, you were signed with the Jays. Uh, was a big honor, but was there much money involved? It was

    Speaker 3 (16:30):

    Apart from the signing bonuses, no, there was different, um, certainly levels of that. Uh, everyone, my first year in rookie ball got $700 a month. So you're, you were at home for half the month and on the road the other half. So you gotta stipend of $10 a day meal money when you're on the road. So it was a, you know, 70 day road trip, you get 70 extra dollars to spend. So you, you pretty much have to pick two meals that you want each during the day. But it was, uh, yeah, it wasn't, certainly wasn't lucrative. And I think it was my second year, it was like eight 20 a month and it was the third year I was married. I think it was up to about 1140. And then my last year was like 1420 I think I was making, So that was, that was a decent wage.

    Speaker 3 (17:18):

    Um, back then we still had to get, find an apartment, find, find furniture, you know, food. I know Joan would be calling my parents or her parents to come down to visit just so we could get some groceries in the, uh, in the fridge when, when we went away on a road trip. But it was fun. I, I wouldn't trade that for anything. So many, so many incredible memories. And we had some pretty quality players as well. We talking with Rick, uh, Pryor about, uh, our double A team, you know, Fred McGriff and Cecil Fielder, Jimmy Key, John Erti, David Wells,

    Speaker 2 (17:52):

    And they all went on to the

    Speaker 3 (17:55):

    Majors. They all had incredible careers. I, I was a roommate of, um, uh, Dy for a year in, uh, in, um, Kinston, North Carolina. So that was fun. Like we just, we had like great memories throughout the whole, my whole career.

    Speaker 2 (18:10):

    And how do you keep in touch with those guys?

    Speaker 3 (18:13):

    Um, that's pretty much it. We, I had a friend in California that, uh, we still, we met each other at the, um, Hall of Fame. We did, uh, Cooperstown, uh, Boston, New York trip when he turned 40. So that was about 15 years ago. And then we, we both attended SO'S funeral, uh, when he passed probably 15 years ago. Yeah, that's the last I've really seen of, uh, of anybody I played with.

    Speaker 2 (18:41):

    So let's talk about your firefighting career because people think, uh, in a small town it's not a lot of action, but anybody who lives here, you see the trucks all the time. What was, when you first started with the fire department, how much of a shock was it, uh, that that perception, uh, is a myth?

    Speaker 3 (19:01):

    When I, Yeah, it's interesting. When I first started with the fire department, you didn't need, uh, schooling to, uh, like there was nothing that you needed as a prerequisite. So as soon as you were hired, you were sent to Gravenhurst for eight weeks and they touch everything you needed to know in Gravenhurst, and then you come back and get on the truck. So that's kind of a shock in itself. You, cuz you're fighting gravenhurst, you're fighting fires every day in their little mock training area. So when you get back, you're all kind of amped up that you're gonna, you know, see firefighter fire. But in reality, um, a lot of medicals, it's a very aged community, lot of old age homes. So that was, I think my biggest, um, aha moment was that we're like, it's a whole lot of medical stuff that we're dealing with. And that didn't even start until probably seven or eight years after I started where we started responding to medical

    Speaker 2 (19:55):

    Supporting the paramedics. Yeah, yeah. But

    Speaker 3 (19:57):

    We're very, um, Strafford has a minimum now. I think things have changed within the last year. I think the minimum Manning's gone up, but our minimum manning was six. So you'd have, you'd

    Speaker 2 (20:10):

    Have her call

    Speaker 3 (20:11):

    Six per shift.

    Speaker 2 (20:13):

    Per shift. Okay. So

    Speaker 3 (20:14):

    You'd have four guys at the station on Huron or on Erie Street and two guys on McCarthy. So if you ever had a fire in the north end, you're in a whole lot of trouble because you got one guy that's supposed to be in charge and one guy that's supposed to run the pump, so there's water to the fire. So you're, you know, there's been times where there was snowstorms where you had trouble getting from Erie Street out to the north end. So it's really, it, it was always really concerning that, you know, you're just waiting for something to happen and, and the what if kind of happened in St. Thomas where they lost a firefighter, the Dennis Redman, and that kind of set shockwave through the, the towns that were, you know, like

    Speaker 2 (20:52):

    Of that size, size, size stock,

    Speaker 3 (20:54):

    Stratford St. Thomas. So they kind of, you know, well always tried to get four people. Like in Toronto, if there's a fire, there's automatically 23 people that show up, you know, Stratford, there's maybe six. So, and then you just, the mentality is you put a pack on and you go in and try to put it out and your bottle runs out and you come outside and then you're supposed to, for every, for every time you breathe down a bottle, you're supposed to rest outside for 15 or 20 minutes. But the reality is you just put another pack on and change your bottle and go back in. So it's, it's a Toronto it's, it's funny that Toronto, you, you, you learn one thing and you learn it good. Like you're, this is your seat on this truck and this is what you do. Strafford, you're driving a truck at the north end one day, and the next day you could be on the back of the truck and the rescue unit, um, responding to medical.

    Speaker 3 (21:46):

    So you really have to be, your, your knowledge really needs to be, um, rough to stay on top of everything, which there's certain standards throughout the province now. There's the, um, the, um, level one and level two that you need now to even apply. Uh, but yeah, the, the, the game has changed a lot. It's, everything's burning hotter, the building construction's a whole lot different, so yeah, you know, they, they don't wanna send people on the roof anymore because the trusses will burn through. Like, there's, there's certain things that you're not supposed to do, but yeah, we just don't have, Stratford doesn't have enough men on the trucks to, to do that initial fire attack.

    Speaker 2 (22:29):

    What's the worst thing you remember as being a small town firefighter? Can you recall something that sticks out in your mind?

    Speaker 3 (22:37):

    Yeah, everything's kind of, you're always, you're always showing up at everyone's worst moment. But I always think that's the, um, people's that, that choose death, that kind of strike chord with, with me. That's kind of what stuck with me. There's, there's been fires, you know, we've had some, you know, some good saves, you know, where we've been able to pull people out. There's been some, some calls where you've been able to defibrillate someone back to life. We had a 39 year old female with three kids in her yard that, uh, we brought back, I'm gonna say seven or eight years ago, was a perfect storm. We had four guys in the truck that day. So everyone kind of had a job, someone took care of the family. So there, there's been great stories, but it's always, always fine that the unanswered questions of the people that have kind of chosen death,

    Speaker 2 (23:25):

    In other words, going back in Oh, by suicide. Yeah.

    Speaker 3 (23:28):

    Yeah. And that let's, that's, there's, you know, there's always, there's lots that goes on in town that, uh, I think that the police, if you interviewed a policeman, tell you the same thing, that there's so much that goes on in Stratford that a lot of people don't know about or hear. But yeah, that, that's always something because it's, it's kind of unanswered. You see the families kind at the Ross moment, it's almost like it's, um, they don't believe that that this is happening to them. And so they're, Yeah,

    Speaker 2 (23:57):

    It's in crisis mode. Yeah, yeah.

    Speaker 3 (23:59):

    Yeah. It's, it's been, uh, that's the kind of the most difficult difficulty I've had with, um, the job

    Speaker 2 (24:06):

    These days. Kevin, anybody who works in the fire department automatically gets ps uh, p ptsd, uh, training. Was there anything like that at the beginning? How did you manage to deal with the trauma you saw and the stress?

    Speaker 3 (24:20):

    Um, I think you had, it was just, I think the, um, just the camaraderie at work. I think we were able to kinda, you know, whether you call it sick humor or

    Speaker 2 (24:30):

    Talk it out what you mean. That's

    Speaker 3 (24:31):

    Right. They'd always kind of, we, we kind of evolved into, um, anytime after a big call that we'd come back and kind of do a debrief. So that was the biggest change. I was kind of involved in health and safety early on, so I kind of, you know, they, they talked about that, that was the PTSD thing was just kind of taken off, um, back when I would've started. So I think that that was probably the biggest thing is the, is the leadership would, uh, not force you to, but, um, the captain was up to the captain to sit down and, you know, make sure everyone is doing well. And then everyone kind of looked out for everyone else. If you could, if you saw somebody that wasn't doing so well, you'd, you know, take 'em aside and have a chat with them. But I think it was kind of handled very well in house.

    Speaker 2 (25:18):

    What about women in the fire hall? They would've started coming in a bit more as you were mid-career. Like tell me about the gender, uh, parody in the fire department in a small town like Stratford,

    Speaker 3 (25:29):

    It was, um, basically just a dispatcher slash secretaries, um, that were the females in the fire department. So never, never was a problem, never was a concern. They, they, um, they were great at what they did and they were respected for it. Now, the, the year that I retired, they hired their first female,

    Speaker 2 (25:53):

    Um, on the truck? Yeah, on the truck,

    Speaker 3 (25:54):

    Yeah. Um, out of, she was outta Kitchener. And, um, she's done an incredible job. I've kind of stayed in touch with her a little bit. Um, I've seen her through, uh, another fellow at the, uh, just retired from the fire department, so as that is a retirement gig there and got a chance to catch up with her, but she's done. She is, she is, um, set the bar high for the next female to come along because she's done an exceptional job.

    Speaker 2 (26:21):

    Fire departments are also called out, uh, for motor vehicle, uh, incidents out outside of Stratford or just in Stratford mostly.

    Speaker 3 (26:29):

    Um, used to be just, we never went outside the city limits, but we've kind of worked our way at the, um, the, uh, management to allow us to, uh, kind of migrate a couple, uh, concessions outside the city. Uh, it just makes sense to me that, um, if we can get there and help and get things set up the same with a fire, if there's, um, a fire outside the city. I think the museum's a perfect example that, uh, that's actually not Stratford's, uh, territory where Seaville would, would come in, but Strafford will go out there and they'll start, um, fighting the fire and then, uh, they'll drop their lines and see, will come in and take over.

    Speaker 2 (27:07):

    How has being a, a firefighter given you a better perspective on your own sort of recommendations for safety? Let's talk about driving first highway. It

    Speaker 3 (27:17):

    Is, it's, it's almost you. That'd be a great question to ask my wife, because she's, I'm like, safety Steve in her eyes. I just, everything's just over the top because you've, you've seen and witnessed the worst of everything. So I, yeah, speeding seat belts, like everything's to the nth degree, like there's no, you know, when you come to corners, I gotta have a motorcycle as well. And that's kind of taught me a lot about driving defensively and yeah, so everything, candles, I, I walk around the house blowing out Canvas, <laugh>, I'm like the worst birthday party person ever.

    Speaker 2 (27:54):

    Um, you're the first one to blow at the

    Speaker 3 (27:56):

    Cattle. Oh my goodness. It's, yeah. Um, yeah, stove, I, you know, every time I leave the house, I check the stove, I check the

    Speaker 2 (28:03):

    Fire. You're a little paranoid that,

    Speaker 3 (28:04):

    Oh my goodness. It's, it's, aw, it's actually awful. But yeah, I try to send the message to everybody and they, I, I'm sure they're sick of me, uh, trying to send that message.

    Speaker 2 (28:15):

    So what's the one thing you think people should know about, uh, firefighting or the fire department in a small town that they may, may not appreciate, you think?

    Speaker 3 (28:25):

    Um, I, that's a great question.

    Speaker 3 (28:32):

    I think it's, it's the, um, like the whole, like the fire department, the fire department lately been kind of set up with, um, you know, there's a couple tiers. There's the fire suppression and then, um, the, um, fire inspection and then the, you know, getting into the, um, um, schools as well. So the education. So that's kind of a three tiered thing. I think the, when, when, um, the firefighters are walking through the town doing their annual fire inspection and want to get in and see your basement and stuff, it's, it's for your own best interest. They're trying to avoid. And I think Stratford's really shown that they have a very aggressive fire inspection program, even a home fire safety program where they get out into the community after hours, um, during the summer where they'll go into individual homes and check to for a working smoke alarm.

    Speaker 3 (29:28):

    So I think the, the message is, is that like we we're trying not to like hide inside the fire department and wait to get called out. We're trying to be proactive in the community and, and kind of make, make sure things are safe. Like if we, if we've got an opportunity to walk through your building downtown, it's certainly gonna pay dividends if there's ever a fire in there and we can't see, and we have to go through there, we're gonna kind of have a bit of an idea of, of what we're getting ourselves into. But I, I, so I guess the answer to your question is just, we're, we're kind of more than what would meet the eye.

    Speaker 2 (30:02):

    And when you look back on your own baseball career and your contribution to Strat, you, you glad you followed the, the path you did?

    Speaker 3 (30:11):

    I, I wouldn't change anything. I wouldn't change a thing. No. I was, I was very fortunate to, uh, be able to have that opportunity to kind of get out of Stratford. Um, Stratford such got a, such a strong draw to bring people back. So I was happy when I was done to come back here and just continue on.

    Speaker 2 (30:32):

    Well, I've known a little bit about your story, but it's great to have the full picture, uh, with you here today. So Kevin Hs and thanks very much. Well,

    Speaker 3 (30:39):

    Thank you very much for having me. I appreciate it.

    Speaker 1 (30:42):

    You've been listening to the Stratford Slice with Craig Thompson. For more episodes, check out our website, the stratford slice.com, and be sure to subscribe. The Stratford slice is produced by Ballon Ran Entertainment, Southwestern Ontario's number one digital media studio. If you have a great story to tell and want to be on the podcast, please reach out to us through our website, the stratford slice.com.

  • Speaker 1 (00:00):

    The following is a podcast from Be and Ran Entertainment.

    Speaker 2 (00:06):

    Hello, it's Craig Thompson, and this is the Stratford Slice. Today on the show, the doctor is in the house. My guest today in the studio here on Downey Street in downtown Stratford is Dr. Sean Blaine. Not only is he a family physician, he is a musician, and he's active in the community. And he's, uh, here with me now. Welcome, Sean. Thanks

    Speaker 3 (00:55):

    A lot, Craig. Pleased to be here

    Speaker 2 (00:57):

    In the news. Right now we're seeing a crisis in healthcare. Uh, we've come out of two years of the pandemic and suddenly seeing that hospitals haven't got enough staff and they're shutting down all over the place, their emergency wards on evenings and weekends. How did we get to this place?

    Speaker 3 (01:16):

    Well, like most situations, it's, uh, a combination of a whole bunch of different factors. I think we are, we are seeing, uh, staff that are, are worn out, uh, tired. Uh, we've got another wave of of Covid, which, you know, people are still getting sick. Uh, so there are absences from, uh, the workplace because of that. But probably the greater number of absences are because of other sicknesses, because since we've kind of gotten everybody back together after being essentially shut in for two years, we are seeing a whole slew of regular illnesses, um, especially in the past two to three months illnesses that we normally see in the wintertime, But we're now seeing them, you know, in the, in the spring and summer. Uh, and so there's been a lot of absences for that. So kids are home from daycare, and so if you're a healthcare worker and your child suddenly has to be home, you can't come in for your shift.

    Speaker 3 (02:16):

    So that's part of it. I think, uh, summer vacations, people are, are dying to get away and, and, uh, many, um, health professionals, nurses in particular probably weren't able to take holidays for much of the pandemic. And so it's, it's just, it's, uh, it's a combination of factors. There is also geography. And I think if you look in this particular area, if you look at Huron Perth, I don't quite know how many emergency rooms there are for that population. But I would venture to say that there's probably, um, you know, more emergency rooms spread out over geography for a population than you would normally have, you know, in a city. And for each one of those emergency departments, you need nurses, physicians, uh, other inci staff, diagnostic equipment. And, uh, you know, I I, I was there for discussions, uh, you know, 10, 15 years ago when I remember, uh, leaders in the health field saying, Look, we, we, we just can't sustain this. But, you know, every small community wants to keep its emergency room and they wanna keep 'em staffed. And, uh, um, you know, so we've kept them staffed all these years, but I think we're gonna have to see about how, you know, how this all plays out in the future. Can we keep doing this? I don't know.

    Speaker 2 (03:34):

    So we've been fooled into believe this level of service is something that was gonna last forever, but we can't sustain it. Is that the,

    Speaker 3 (03:42):

    Well, I don't know. I think it just needs to be, uh, you know, maybe resources need to be rejigged or, or used in a more efficient manner, you know? Um, so is it the geographic place that's the important thing? Or is it having, uh, you know, places in it to cover a certain geography that are well staffed and consistently staffed and properly resourced to do that particular type of job? So, um, I don't know. This is, this is tough, right? I mean, you hear a foal island, Newfoundland, you know, they've had a doctor for over a hundred years and, and they're losing their doctor now. Well, you know, um, uh, does it make sense that that island always have a doctor? I don't know. I don't know the answer to those questions, but, uh, you know, it's, it's tough. It's really, really tough. And I think it, it's gonna take a really, uh, you know, careful look to see what are the, what, what the numbers show, what's the best way to, to do this type of care, Um, how can you, uh, leverage different provider resources to, to, um, to make sure that people have access to the types of care, you know, that they need.

    Speaker 3 (04:51):

    So it's a, it's an Ontario issue. It's across Canada issue. Different parts of the country have different challenges. It's

    Speaker 2 (04:57):

    Happening in the UK as well. Yeah.

    Speaker 3 (04:58):

    Yeah. Well, pro, yeah. And, and, uh, and I was talking to a friend who's in healthcare, and they were in Indonesia and <laugh>, and there was a shortage of nurses in Indonesia and closures and hospitals there. So it's, uh, it's, it's happening everywhere, right? Uh, and I think we're, we're stuck in an old model, uh, you know, in this country, a lot of this, um, what we're doing was, was the foundationally built in the, in the sixties and seventies, and, and we just haven't really adapted yet. So,

    Speaker 2 (05:26):

    Well, I just finished a film on Dr. Norman Bethune, who got his start in Stratford, and he was branded socialist in a communist, and was ostracized in the 1930s for suggesting that, uh, socialized medicine or universal healthcare should be offered. He said his, in his view, uh, the rich man, uh, lives, the poor man dies mm-hmm. <affirmative>, mm-hmm. <affirmative>. But it wasn't until 30 years later, long after his death that, uh, universal healthcare became, uh, uh, adopted in Canada. Are you suggesting that we have to come up with a new model?

    Speaker 3 (06:03):

    Uh, I don't think so. I would never wanna live in any other type of, uh, model. I think if anything, it can be, uh, expanded, enhanced rejigged. Um, um, I've been very fortunate to be, uh, a physician, uh, that has experienced many, many different types of, uh, care type structures that I've, you know, I started out as a, as a solo gp. Uh, then I, I, I joined a group here in Stratford. Uh, but essentially we were still just, you know, covering after hours for each other. But during the day, we're just solo gps. I was billing fee for service, and now I'm essentially paid on kind of a quasi salary based on the number of patients and working in a team where I don't operate in isolation. I operate in a setting where I have a whole host of other health professionals who have skills that compliment my own skills, and where we, uh, share the care of the patient and where people are able to, um, you know, enhance the practice experience for, for the patient.

    Speaker 3 (07:12):

    So, uh, in the past when I would be seeing, well, babies, I'd be giving the shots myself. Uh, well, that's, I just don't do that. I haven't done that in many, many years. Uh, uh, my, uh, the nurses give the shots. Uh, the nurses are the experts in immunization. Patients ask me a question about immunization. I say, We're gonna have you talk to the nurse. They're the expert, right? And, uh, because you can't be just a complete jack of all trades anymore. Um, but I think, um, you know, family physicians still remain, uh, foundational to the healthcare system. The primary care is the initial access point. And really we become, um, experts in, um, you know, helping people access this myriad of a healthcare system that, that we live in. And, um, so we help them with navigating their journey. We help them with, uh, um, accessing a whole bunch of other ancillary healthcare care services.

    Speaker 3 (08:12):

    And, um, uh, I just, I just think I, I feel very fortunate to be able to, to work, you know, in Canada, in, in a system where we have, you know, universal health coverage. Now we don't have universal coverage for everything. So, you know, there are patients who have, uh, drug benefits and others who don't. And then, uh, so we have to make treatment decisions based on that. There are some people who have benefits for, you know, dental and physiotherapy. So it's not all, it's not easy, but I can, I can tell you it's a lot better than the states. I, one of my patients was in the States, uh, recently, and, uh, they had to come back, um, for, um, uh, a problem. And I was in that room for almost 45 minutes filling out forms. I mean, it was very little of the visit was actually, uh, care, It was actually filling out insurance forms, and that's what you're gonna be like, uh, if, if we were to go to some kinda other model. Uh, so it's, uh, I would never, ever want to set foot south of the border and practice medicine. I can tell you that.

    Speaker 2 (09:16):

    How do we deal with the fact that, um, access to primary care is almost, um, the luck of the draw. Now, people who are well established in a community and have longstanding relationships can get a family physician, but there aren't enough family doctors or doctors in general to meet the population. So it's not really universal healthcare because a good part of the population have to rely on a one 800 number to actually get healthcare. How do we deal with that?

    Speaker 3 (09:45):

    Well, there's, there's gonna be multiple ways of, of addressing that issue. Um, I, I recently inquired as to how well that Healthcare Connect hotline, which was set up a number of years ago, to help people, uh, line themselves up with doctors who were accepting patients. Um, and I actually met somebody recently who, who moved to town about a year ago and actually ended up getting in with a physician through that mechanism. So that mechanism still works, but it's, it's slow and it takes time. Um, I think, um, one of the things we need to do is recognize that the government is who mandates who can set up shop and who can get a license. So you can have a trainee go through, get their md, go through the residency training program, become a certified family physician, apply for a license to practice, uh, in Ontario, which they will, uh, which they will get.

    Speaker 3 (10:39):

    But then to join a team, if I, if I want a new doctor to join my team, uh, the government has set a firm cap on the number of family doctors who can join an existing team, uh, in any given month. I don't remember what, what the current number is, but not long ago it was 20. So 20 doctors in Ontario maximum are allowed to join teams. Um, the fact that there's a capital is insanity. Uh, I don't understand it. You'd have to talk to a bureaucrat to figure out why that is. Um, but, uh, it's, it's, you know, it, uh, it, it's, there's, this is the type of craziness we're dealing with, uh, within the bureaucracy. Um, the other thing is that I think many, uh, people in training, so many medical students are going through and they're getting a variety of experiences during their, their clinical rotations.

    Speaker 3 (11:38):

    And when it comes time to applying for a residency spot, they have to decide are they gonna do a specialty or are they gonna do family practice? And this past year, we saw for the first time a very large number of family medicine residency spots. So they do a match, right? So all the medical students put their name in the hat and they rank their first, second, and third choice, and based on their performance and that they get accepted into these various spots. Well, there were many, many unfilled family medicine training spots at multiple universities in the country, which means that the medical students themselves are just choosing not to pick family medicine as a career.

    Speaker 2 (12:20):

    They want the higher paying specialty, uh, medicine careers, which are largely urban centers. You can't go to, uh, uh, campus casing or the small remote communities and practice Yeah. A specialty. Yeah.

    Speaker 3 (12:35):

    So, and the, the other thing is there's a, a great disparity in how family physicians are paid and, uh, and, and the remuneration across the country. Uh, and I I, I just must admit, I, I didn't realize it. We we're, we're, we're really done well in Ontario, I think in the sense that, uh, back in the mid two thousands, there was the family health team that was adopted, and there was, there was a, a push to get physicians off the, the billing treadmill. So the, the old fee for service model was, was altered so that you were now paid kind of a set fee per patient per year. And I've been on that model now since that time. And I, you know, I must say I, uh, uh, am am happy with, with, uh, what I get paid. I, I, I, uh, but I, I, I probably do better than my sim similar colleagues of mine in, in BC and other provinces, because in BC there's still, if they wanna bill, if they really wanna build the health system, they have to see the patient, they have to actually do something to the patient. Uh, and so there isn't a lot of, um, uh, emphasis on, you know, uh, health maintenance, uh, prevention, right? Cuz it's all based on action, you

    Speaker 2 (13:48):

    Know? So how does the medical profession and the government work together to make family medicine more attractive for new graduates?

    Speaker 3 (13:56):

    Uh, yeah, that's a, that's a, that's a good question. Um, I don't know.

    Speaker 2 (14:01):

    Bonusing, uh, regional bonuses or,

    Speaker 3 (14:04):

    Well, I, I, I, I think the, these discussions have been going on for, for, for many, many years. I, uh, I mean, I, I think we know that graduates who are interested in primary care, if they wanna do family medicine, they wanna operate as a family doctor in a team setting. They want to work side by side with nurses, nurse practitioners, psychologists, dieticians, counselors, physi if they wanna work in a team setting, because we know that team based care works. Um, and, uh, and that, that, that's, that's, and many of the academic centers, at least in Ontario, are those, those training spots are, are team based training spots. So, um, if the government says, Well, you know, uh, sorry, we're limiting the number of spots in teams. Oh, you wanna be a gp? Okay, well, you can go, you can go be a, you know, set your, set up your shop just by yourself. Just, there's no way to practice. That's, that's, uh, that's looking back to the 1960s, 1970s. Uh, so when

    Speaker 2 (15:04):

    Doctors made house calls,

    Speaker 3 (15:05):

    Yeah, well, yeah, we still make house calls <laugh>, I make house calls. So, uh, uh, but, um, uh, the other thing too, and, and this is just bad timing, is that, um, the certifying college, uh, of college and family Physicians of Canada, uh, they've now made it so that the required training for a family physician, instead of being a two year residency after the four years of medical school, it's now gonna be a three year residency training program. And I don't know exactly when that's coming in, but basically when that comes in, we're gonna have one year where we're not graduating any family physicians because they're gonna be doing three years.

    Speaker 2 (15:47):

    What about the talk of foreign trained, uh, talking about that with nurses right now and nurse practitioners. We've got a lot of newcomers moving into Canada who have come from well respected institutions in their own countries, but don't meet the, uh, recognition standards for Canada. How can we tap into that talent pool and build up our, uh, fast track our, our, the growth of our medical, uh, profession?

    Speaker 3 (16:15):

    Yeah, I, I'm sure there's a way to, to do that. And I know the, the minister made it a priority for, uh, for her, her government to, to look at, uh, uh, fast tracking it and looking at mechanisms by which they can do that. They're

    Speaker 2 (16:29):

    Just talking about nurses right now. Not,

    Speaker 3 (16:31):

    I think physicians too. Are they? I think so. I think physicians too. Yeah. Yeah. So I mean, there are a variety of, of, of training programs in different countries that, that I think are, uh, uh, I'm sure there's a way to kind of vet, uh, one versus another. Uh, again, I don't follow that very closely, but I, I am sure that there is a way that, that, uh, that, you know, pool could be, could be tapped into. Um, uh, so

    Speaker 2 (16:59):

    What about burnout? And during covid 19, uh, frontline workers in the healthcare profession, were seven days a week, you know, working nonstop. How much of that has impacted the staffing shortages that we're seeing right now?

    Speaker 3 (17:14):

    Uh, it's having a, a huge impact. Um, I know of, of many, uh, of my patients who are nurses who are, are, you know, looking to get out who, uh, have had enough. Um, I, uh, uh, I, I, my colleagues, uh, talk about, about burnout. I've, I've experienced a burnout not myself, this, these past two years. Uh, and it's, um, there's great danger when you're in a caring profession and you, yourself are like, there's no, there's nothing left on the gas tank anymore, because you've gotta be on your game, right? And, uh, if, um, if I'm not on my game, if I'm exhausted, if I'm frustrated, if I'm angry, if I'm upset about something, uh, I'm just, you know, my normal, uh, I'm not in getting into the zone, right? When I, when I walk into a room with a patient, I need to get into the zone where they become the absolute focus of everything for me at that moment, right?

    Speaker 3 (18:19):

    From their, their appearance, their demeanor, the way they're telling the story. And, uh, and if there's anything that's messing with my radar to, to kind of do my job, which is to tease out the pearls of what they're telling me, um, then there's greater chance of error and there's greater chance of stuff getting missed. So burnout is, is, it's dangerous in point of view of we are gonna lose, um, health providers, but it's also dangerous from just a care perspective because you're just not on your game. Uh, so if you're upset, you're not sleeping at night, uh, you know, you're, uh, it, it's just, it's, it's awful. It's really, really terrible and on for so many reasons. There's been the burnout. It's the, the pandemic, the constantly changing guidelines, the constant political drama around the whole vaccine thing and the whole mask thing. It's just, you know, it's really gotten to be very tiring and very, um, upsetting and demoralizing and, uh, uh, frustrating. Uh, and the fact that, you know, many guidelines were changing from one moment to the next. And, and, uh, it just, uh, it really expends a lot of energy, right? You only have so much energy to give, and we, we give and give and give, and give and give all day long. And if you're kind of giving on those fronts, then you don't have a lot to give on some other fronts where it's really critically important. So we all like to point out is just deadly.

    Speaker 2 (19:49):

    We all like to thank our doctors are infallible. So I'd like to find it, if you can tell me, how did the burnout particularly affect you? How did it sort of play out?

    Speaker 3 (19:57):

    Um, well, I, uh, that's a, a tough one. I felt it very acutely, uh, lately. I mean, it has been different reasons. My biggest, uh, frustration right now is just the overwhelming amount of paperwork, um, and the insurance forms. And, uh, you know, if somebody were to come to me 25 years ago with, with some kind of job related stress, or they've had, you know, somebody's a critically ill on their family and they just need a couple of weeks off, you know, basically I would write a note to say, you know, so and so is gonna be off for two weeks. And, and that was it. Job done, finished, right? They'd be off for two weeks, and that was it. And now it's form after form after form. And it's, uh, you know, the, i I prepare people now for, for, you know, if they're gonna be off work.

    Speaker 3 (20:54):

    I say, you know, okay, well, the minute you're off, somebody from the insurance company's gonna be calling, and they're, they're gonna say, Oh, gee, you sound pretty good to me. Why aren't you back at work? You know? And, and, uh, they, they really don't care what the, the physician says, to be honest with you. You know, it's, it's all about, uh, it's very formulaic, you know? Uh, so does the patient have a diagnosis? What's the diagnosis? If they don't have a diagnosis, why do they see the specialist? Okay, well, did they go on treatment? Why didn't they go on treatment? What's the response to the treatment? When are you gonna reassess the treatment? I mean, it's, it's like you need never ending. It's never ending. It's just never ending.

    Speaker 2 (21:28):

    So before the pandemic, you would go into your office and you'd have a separation between your personal life and your medical life. But during the covid, you were working from home, and now we have a little bit of a hybrid model. How difficult was that practicing in your own home? And also your wife's a doctor too?

    Speaker 3 (21:46):

    Yeah, So, well, so just, just to be clear, I mean, we, we always had the higher grid model, so there was never a time when I was just at home. I've, I've, I've been in the office the whole time. Um, so there are times where I would, uh, group my appointments so that, you know, if we, there was, there was a time when during the, the highest waves of the pandemic that we were seeing, probably, at least in our office, I can't speak for other places, but in our office, we would maybe have, you know, close to 90% of the visits were, were phone based visits. So then yes, I would group, you know, I might, I might group those and, and do that at home. And then the minis start doing stuff at home. It becomes easy to just keep doing everything at home.

    Speaker 3 (22:29):

    And then it's easy, Well, I'll chart on this later. And then you're, you know, you're, you're there charting from nine till 1130 at night, and then you're doing that once a week, and then you're doing it three times a week, and then you're also doing it on the weekends, right? And then it just builds and builds and builds, and there's always more and more paperwork. So, um, so that being said, um, we've been able to keep the good parts of that hybrid model. So there are many, many visits for which we never used to just have a phone call with people, but where a phone call is entirely appropriate. So I have a large practice, There are many of my patients I know very, very well. Uh, many times they're presenting with a particular problem that does not necessarily require a physical examination, or the purpose of the visit is for a follow up or some kind of discussion around medication management or changes that can easily be done on the phone. And my patients are, by and large, are very appreciative of the opportunity to have that done on the phone. And so that, that's one good thing that came outta the pandemic, is that we're hopefully gonna be able to keep this, this hybrid model. You know,

    Speaker 1 (23:37):

    You're listening to the Stratford slice with Craig Thompson. Check out our website, the stratford slice.com, and be sure to subscribe. And now back to the show.

    Speaker 2 (23:49):

    So one of your outlets is music. Tell me a little bit about your, your fascination for music, and it's not just as a listener.

    Speaker 3 (23:57):

    No, well, I, I've always been, uh, a fan of, of many varieties of music. I, uh, um, as a kid, I, I really was into the whole, uh, progressive rock scene, art rock type stuff, like, uh, Genesis and Yes, and Pink Floyd and that. Uh, and I've always loved going to concerts. So that was just a big, um, big thing for me is just the, the, the, just an amazing experience to be there to watch, uh, a performance of, of somebody's, um, work in a, in a live setting. Um, and, uh, so back then, late seventies, early eighties, I, I was doodling around on the piano. I was playing piano and, and, uh, recorded a number of, you know, musical tidbits. And, uh, we would get together with a high school buddy and we would jam for hours on end. Um, and I, I kept recordings of all these, um, uh, these, uh, little riffs and, and songs and, uh, and kept them.

    Speaker 3 (24:57):

    And, uh, recently, uh, I've had the opportunity to kind of take all those cassettes and, uh, and put them down digitally. And I'm actually working with, uh, uh, Earl Phil Singer who, you know, is a local musician, uh, to kind of resurrect some of these, uh, musical ideas. The other thing I did over years is, um, is to kind of put pen to paper lyrically as well. So I've, I've also, um, um, uh, well, probably, probably mostly in the, in the eighties, I guess, uh, wrote quite a bit of stuff and, you know, I just file it away. And so I recently took those out too, and, and, and looked at them. Uh, and so I'm, I'm, uh, recording now with, with Earl, um, doing an album of, uh, we have about 11 songs. And

    Speaker 2 (25:47):

    Will it be shared publicly, or is this for your own

    Speaker 3 (25:49):

    Amusement

    Speaker 2 (25:50):

    And pleasure?

    Speaker 3 (25:51):

    It kind of started as a, uh, just a little bit of a musical legacy project, just for me. But, uh, I'm, I'm really enjoying it. And, uh, I, I, I'd love to be able to release it publicly and, and perform it maybe one day. We're a few years off from that, probably realistically <laugh>.

    Speaker 2 (26:08):

    Well, don't make it way too long. Um, lyrically what kind of story or message would you say your, your songs are trying to get out?

    Speaker 3 (26:16):

    So, um, most of it was, uh, personal stuff, relationship stuff, um, um, as a, as a young, young person, right? Uh, um, and, uh, you know, interestingly, the, the, there is a song, uh, on the album that, that actually is, is, uh, written about, uh, a patient experience, uh, that I had, which is a very, very moving experience. And that was about eight or 10 years ago that happened. And I remember one day, uh, it was a Saturday morning, and I, it just, it just came to me and I just sat down and I just started writing. I just wrote, I wrote the whole song in about 30 minutes. And, uh, and that, that, uh, that to me is, is the only song that I've ever written that is about an actual patient experience. Uh, most of the others though are just, you know, kind of young, young kid, Dr. Pie, the sky dreaming and <laugh>, you know.

    Speaker 2 (27:14):

    So it's a bit of an outlet and escape for you?

    Speaker 3 (27:16):

    Oh, it is a huge, huge outlet for me. It's, um, I realize that if, if, uh, if Earl's doing a series of shows up in Drayton or somewhere, and I, I don't get to see him for three or four weeks, uh, uh, my, my mood really tanks <laugh>. So, yeah. So if I can have, uh, you know, uh, one night a week where we can get together and lay down some tracks and I can hear what he's done with the guitar on the base that, uh, that just lifts me right up.

    Speaker 2 (27:42):

    Why did you decide to go into Medicine, Family Medicine, and how did you end up in Stratford?

    Speaker 3 (27:48):

    Well, um, I remember, uh, so, uh, I was always interested in science. I was always interested in, um, in biological sciences. My undergrad degree was in, uh, genetics and molecular biology. So I always, um, was fascinated by that scientific background. In fact, when I, when I applied to medicine, I really wanted to be a researcher and a, and a specialist. So I actually wanted to be a, a cancer doctor. I wanted to be an oncologist, um, and, um, and cure cancer <laugh>. Uh, so I, I may worked in a, in, um, uh, oncology clinic and realized I really didn't, didn't like that. But, um, the, uh, no, it, it, um, uh, sorry, you're gonna have to, you asked me the question. How

    Speaker 2 (28:37):

    Did you, uh, decide to go into family medicine, and how did you end up coming to Strat after

    Speaker 3 (28:42):

    Practice? Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, um, uh, you know, I knew that I wanted, I, I, I, as a kid, I had worked as a lifeguard and a swimming instructor, and I loved people. I really loved that kind of people contact. And in my undergrad, I, you know, I was doing lab work, and I just found it. I thought, you know, okay, the labs are clearly interesting, but I'm missing that kind of interpersonal contact stuff, right? So medicine allows you to have that regular contact with people. So that was my real basis for applying, you know, um, was to, uh, just to have the social contact and the, the, the intimate contact with people and be a big part of, uh, of their, their lives. Um, I think though, my, my passion probably at the time was music. And I remember walking with my dad, Uh, we were up north and we were walking down a road late at night, and I said, Dad, you know, I think, um, uh, I, I think I want to do music and I don't think I want to do medicine. And, uh, he made it pretty clear to me that that was not gonna be a good idea. <laugh>, Was he a doctor? No, he was an engineer. Oh,

    Speaker 2 (29:56):

    He wanted you a

    Speaker 3 (29:57):

    Profession. Yeah. He said, You know what, you can always do music later. Um, uh, you can always have music as a sideline, but, but, um, you know, and he, he was right. He was, he was right. Um, so, but I, I was torn. I was, there was a time there where I really thought I might just do music. Um, so, so that's the medicine thing. And then, uh, uh, once I, um, did my training, it was through, it was in my residency and family practice that, uh, Kirsten and I worked together at North York General. So, uh, we worked very closely together on a psychiatry rotation that I was doing. And, um, and, uh, one of our, uh, psychiatry, um, uh, mentors at the time who was doing some teaching with us, he was talking to us about hypnosis. And so he, uh, sat us down.

    Speaker 3 (30:48):

    It was just myself and Kirsten, and she was just a, another, you know, trainee with me, right? Uh, we didn't had, have a relationship. So <laugh>, he said, Well, let's do some hypnosis. So we'll, we'll, uh, who wants to try? And so the joke is that he hypnotized me, and I just have never come out of the trance <laugh>. Um, but, uh, so when, uh, you know, Kirs and I got, got engaged, she was in her training to be a pediatrician, which of course is, uh, four, was five years for her, actually, cuz she did an internship. So while she was doing her training at Sick Kids Hospital, I, uh, worked as an emergency doctor in Toronto. So I worked in the ER at North York General, which at the time and probably still is, uh, one of the busiest emergency departments in the country.

    Speaker 3 (31:36):

    Um, and it was there that I, um, I'm so grateful that I had that experience that you've seen it all. Oh, I, you know, it's, uh, it was an amazing three years. It was full-time emerge and, um, that showed me and taught me what a sick person looks like. Uh, and, uh, I'll never forget those years. Um, but I also will never forget the fact that I hated making people wait. You know? And I, I could never, I could never work in the environment. Now, you know, I just, you know, people are worried, they're angry, they're sick, they're, they're, and, and then you're doing your best, but you're walking up and down the halls and they're all staring at you. And I, I just couldn't,

    Speaker 2 (32:17):

    When will you see me? When will you see me? Yeah.

    Speaker 3 (32:19):

    You know, so, um, so although I was actually have special training in emergency medicine, I did extra an extra year in Emerge. Um, and I thought I might be an emerg doc, you know, it was three years, then I thought, I, I, I can't do this forever. It's just too, too much. So, uh, when, when ki finally, um, uh, got her specialty certification, we went on the hunt for a community. So we looked everywhere. We went up to Barry, went to Peterborough, went to St. Catherine's, went up to, uh, Aurelia, Um, and, uh, we checked out all these communities. We visited, we met with the doctors, uh, and, uh, and then Stratford came up and we came here. And, uh, there was only two pediatricians here at the time. And, uh, they met with Kirs and, uh, were happy to have her. And, and, uh, I was looking for an opportunity here.

    Speaker 3 (33:10):

    Uh, there hadn't been a new doctor here in a while. I think this is 1997, It's 25 years now. Um, but one of the, one of the docs here was, uh, going on maternity leave. So I ended up doing that maternity leave, locum, and while I was looking after her patients, uh, I started just accepting patients of my own. So that's how the practice started. Um, and we came and, uh, we've never looked back, uh, for me, Southwest Ontario. I mean, that was, you know, any, any anything west of Young Street in my mind was called Mississauga. You know, I, I didn't know anything about southwest Ontario. I, I'd been here once, maybe in high school to see a play, but that was about it. Um, so it's a great part of the province. It's an outstanding city. We just, we love it here. It's, uh, it's unparalleled opportunity for, for culture and leisure and, uh, community and friends. And, uh, we've, we've really laid down roots here and, uh, we just love it. Yeah.

    Speaker 2 (34:13):

    Well, looking back on the last couple of years, we've gone through, uh, a very tumultuous time as a doctor. Uh, can you sort of take the pulse of society right now? The world is still in a little bit of angst or a lot of angst, I guess, in many ways mental health is being affected. We're seeing a lot more police calls and various things like that. Where are we right now in terms of, uh, community health or our own societal health?

    Speaker 3 (34:42):

    Yeah, we're in a, in a troubled, we're in troubled waters. And I think there are certain things that we need to look at to kind of, um, rip the boat in a way, right? Um, uh, um, the, the internet and the whole social media thing, I think has a big impact on, uh, our general demeanor. Um, and I'm, I'm guilty of falling into that trap. I mean, you know, the first thing I do when I wake up in the morning, I reach for my phone and I start looking at news items and, you know, and it's just crazy. It fuels, it fuels I think, angst, You know, uh, of course I'm a news junkie, but I, I, I begin to realize it's not doing me any, any good. The problem is too, that, um, people can just totally immerse themselves in, uh, a particular type of media that really doesn't help to expand their horizons anymore.

    Speaker 3 (35:49):

    And, um, uh, I think we are prone just because of we're, we're human. We're prone to wanting, you know, validation for maybe beliefs that we already have. And the way social media and the internet are set up now is that you basically can very easily find stuff there that makes you feel like you are right. Um, and, uh, to the exclusion of all other ideas. And I think what's healthier for us is to have, um, opportunity for, um, you know, challenge to be introduced into our, our thought process, into discussions. And I, I think it's gonna be really, uh, important for educators going forward to help, uh, you know, students of all ages, uh, even adult learners to, um, uh, develop a greater awareness of this, right? You know, so I can set up my feed on my, on my phone to give me all the news that makes me happy, because it's the stories that I want to hear with the result that I want to have and the slant that I want to have.

    Speaker 3 (37:15):

    And all you need to do, if you look at the, the southern border south of us, it, the US is a perfect example of this, where you have, um, essentially two coexisting realities on the ground. So, um, and, and I would challenge anyone to read the top 10 stories on Fox News's website, and immediately then go to CNN's website and read the top 10 stories. And it's like you're on a different planet, a completely different planet. And, um, and the Fox people will never look at anything else except Fox and the CNN people will never look at anything else other than cnn. And that's gonna lead us to a very, very scary place. Um, so I, I think, um, you know, uh, back in the day, you know, I, you remember, um, you know, back in, in the seventies when news was, was news, right? I mean, it was, it was just one kind of source, right? And, and, and people argued about it, and they didn't, they weren't vitriolic about it. They, there were discussions, you know, I hope we can get there. Uh, but that's, I think that's a big, the media's a big part of it. I, I think, so we need to figure that one out. And you played your own role,

    Speaker 2 (38:34):

    The media, We worked together quite a bit during the pandemic where you were trying to combat some misinformation. You did a, a number of, um, uh, videos, social media videos that were really quite widely spread. They were got a good audience. Tell me, was that in, in direct relation to the fact that you were seeing all this mis misinformation on social media?

    Speaker 3 (38:57):

    Um, I'm not, I don't think so, not consciously. I think I was feeling helpless and frustrated, and I know the first video that that, uh, that we did was, was as a result of that frustration, it was darnt, We gotta do something, you know, And it was a call, call to help, right? Um, so, um, and, uh, I think I was surprised, and I think I'm still shocked at how, um, there is not a very good understanding of how science works. You know, I, I was educated in the scientific method and all of my, my undergrad and and medical foundational training was, is based on the scientific method. And, and, you know, <laugh>, the whole basis of that is, you know, well, you try stuff and if stuff doesn't work well, then you try something else and you look at it. And that's, that, that's kind of what we were doing during the pandemic, was we were dealing with something, we didn't know how it behaved. And so we tried something and sometimes we were right, sometimes we're wrong, and then we adapted and we changed, and that's how science works. But people looked at it and said, What's the matter with you? You didn't get it right, Like, you're wrong the first time. How could we possibly trust you? And for me, as someone who grew up understanding that, that that's, like, that's how we've been able to put, you know, uh, satellites in orbit around other planets. <laugh> is because of the trial and error of it. But we as a,

    Speaker 2 (40:48):

    It was experimentation in real

    Speaker 3 (40:49):

    Time, in real time, and everybody had a front row seat, right? And they just, some of these people just scoffed and laughed. Scientists don't know what they're talking about, and they have no clue what that, that, that, this is how all of science has, has worked over the centuries. Right? Um, so I, I, so that's a failure of the education system. I think we, we just haven't done a good enough job of, of, you know, explaining that this is how we figure out stuff. It just doesn't come out of a, a hat, you

    Speaker 2 (41:31):

    Know? But we won't really know until we look back a few years, hence, to see, uh, how we could have handled it differently or what the result was. We need some more time to, uh, see how things play out.

    Speaker 3 (41:44):

    Absolutely. Yeah.

    Speaker 2 (41:45):

    Yeah. Well, it's great to have you on the show, Sean. Uh, thanks very much for stopping in.

    Speaker 3 (41:51):

    This was great, and congratulations to you on that award. So

    Speaker 2 (41:55):

    For our Dr. Bethune, uh, film. Yeah. Great. Thanks very much, Sean. My guest today has been Dr. Sean Blaine.

    Speaker 1 (42:02):

    You've been listening to the Stratford Slice with Craig Thompson. For more episodes, check out our website, the stratford slice.com, and be sure to subscribe. The Stratford slice is produced by Ballon Ran Entertainment, Southwestern Ontario's number one digital media studio. If you have a great story to tell and want to be on the podcast, please reach out to us through our website, the stratford slice.com.

  • Speaker 1 (00:00):

    The following is a podcast from Be and Ran Entertainment.

    Speaker 2 (00:05):

    Hello, it's Craig Thompson, and this is the Stratford Slice. Today on the show, there Be Dragons

    Speaker 2 (00:37):

    Around the time that this show, uh, launches, the Stratford Dragon Boat Festival will be on the, uh, the waters of the a Avon River, uh, September 17th, the 25th race, not the 25th annual, because for two years, because of the pandemic, the race was postponed. So this is the 25th anniversary. It's a, it is a quite an accomplishment, and my guest today is the man who started it all. His name is Ken Gene. I've known him since high school. He runs Gene's restaurant in Stratford, but his family is one of the pioneering Chinese families in Stratford and area. And welcome to the show.

    Speaker 3 (01:16):

    Thanks, Greg. Thanks for, uh, thanks for the invite.

    Speaker 2 (01:18):

    Tell me how the Dragon Boat Festival got its start. So 27 years ago now.

    Speaker 3 (01:24):

    Okay, so, well, my background, I have a, um, a canoe, uh, racing background, and I did that in Oakville from 1989 to about 1995. I moved back to Stratford in, let's see, 1991. And, uh, there's a, there's a fellow Canoe Paddler, Brian McNeil Smith, and we got together and, uh, the initial thought was, Let's start a canoe club. And then we thought, well, maybe pop, uh, Dragon Boat was pretty popular. And, uh, we thought the way to get a Canoe Club was to do a Dragon Boat Festival. And then we, we'd recruit and, uh, start a canoe club. But Dragon Boat just took off. Everybody loved Dragon Boat. Uh, we were approached by some women, uh, to start a club in the, uh, the second year in 1997. So 1996 was when the initial, um, race, um, started. Uh, but it was Brian McNeil Smith, myself. There's another, uh, pad that we had, um, a meeting with. And then eventually we brought, um, Kevin McCann from Rotary to, uh, that was the, the volunteers for the, for the race. And, um, basically the rest is history

    Speaker 2 (02:45):

    And Dragon Boats. Over the last 25 years, festivals, Dragon Boat festivals have spread all over every town and city across North America and beyond. There seems to be Dragon Boat Festivals everywhere now.

    Speaker 3 (02:57):

    There are festivals, but I would say it peaked maybe 10 years ago. And then the, um, there's, there's a little less now that the competitive end is still there. Um, the locals, uh, yeah, this is still pretty strong. Um, but the, uh, yeah, there's, um, actually a bit of a decline in some of the, uh, just, just mostly expenses. Um, there's a bit of a decline in, uh, number of festivals, but it's still very strong, especially in the, um, the major centers like Toronto, Vancouver, where I'm, I'm not sure now, but there, there used to be like 200 teams per race. But, uh, at, at one point, yeah, there were, every, every city that had around here anyway had, um, like a service club, right. Um, they were running events. So there, there's a, a big network. Uh, it's going into the, um, two thousands start a bit of a decline, but it's still very strong.

    Speaker 2 (04:04):

    So, Ken, where would you rank Stratford's Dragon Boat Festival in that Mill U Like how successful has it been as a big ch gone beyond your wildest dreams?

    Speaker 3 (04:12):

    Oh, definitely. Um, Stratford race, it's, um, although it's a, a small town race, uh, it, we were up to like a hundred teams when we did a two day event backing around, I think it was 2000. We did a hundred teams. Um, it's a bit of, uh, it's plateaued and it is a bit of a, a decline now, but, uh, it's still very strong. Um, yeah, they're, they're a few that have, have gone. Um, but, uh, yeah, it's, um, a very popular event. We have lots of, uh, people come in for that day. Um, yeah, it's still, it's still very strong. So, uh, as far as it, it's considered kinda like in this, in this area, the, uh, kind of the closer of the season. So there's a big race in Toronto, right, the weekend before, and then Stratford's, kinda like the, the finale.

    Speaker 2 (05:07):

    Now, can you take us back culturally, the history of Dragon Boats. They were originally set up to honor the river dragon, and what's, what's your knowledge of the actual Chinese history of Dragon boats?

    Speaker 3 (05:19):

    Well, Dragon Boats started over 2000 years ago, and there was a, um, a poet, I think with the Chew Dynasty. There's a poet, um, politician Kuan who, um, basically he, he did something and the, the king or the leader basically didn't approve of what he said. He lost face, and he jumped in the river to, uh, drown himself. And the, the fishermen and the farmers, they, they paddled up to where he, uh, drown himself. They threw, um, these rice cakes and, um, other food so the fish wouldn't eat his body. And to, to, uh, commemorate the, uh, the event because he was a popular politician that, uh, they did drag what racing, and that's been going on for 2000 years. And, uh, modern Dragon Boats came to be in about, I think 1986, uh, 1990, around that era.

    Speaker 2 (06:27):

    Now, you come from a Chinese, uh, uh, background, Chinese family. How much of that was an influence in your cultural pride in having something Chinese in your hometown? You were born in Stratford.

    Speaker 3 (06:39):

    I, I was born in Stratford, uh, born and raised in Stratford. Um, so culturally it was, it was important to me. It was a, it was a Chinese canoe. Um, and when we went to Rotary to sell the idea, and they were all looking at us like, uh, a canoe race. And I say, Oh, it's like 20 people in a canoe. And they, it's a Chinese canoe, but they paddle and, uh, there's a lot of people, it, it's really good. It's really colorful. And, um, you know, we

    Speaker 2 (07:08):

    Were, they hesitant at first.

    Speaker 3 (07:09):

    They were hesitant. They said, Well, I don't know. Cuz there, there were some Rotarians who thought, uh, ah, it's, this is not gonna fly. But, uh, we pursued it. And, um, there, there's certain parts of it that are culturally important, like the eye doting ceremony, um, where you, it, it's the awakening of the dragon. So you, you, you with, um, red paint, you, you dot the eyes and the tongue, and, uh, basically the, it's to bring the dragon to life for, for the race. So that's done as a ceremony, uh, usually before, before the race to instill the, uh, spirit of the dragon into the paddlers. So that's, that's kind of important. So I kind of cringe when I see some events that they'll, they'll have the, that, that dragon head, and they'll just have it separate from the bone and someone will hold it, and then they'll, they'll dot the eye. And I, I, I shake my head say, No, no, no, That's, that's not right. So,

    Speaker 2 (08:11):

    So the, your colleagues at Rotary, uh, after the first year or two, they must like, wow, this is an event. Like, what was their, what was their reaction? They must those who were hesitant must be, uh, eating their words.

    Speaker 3 (08:24):

    Yeah, Well, they thought, uh, you get five years out of it, they'd, they'd be happy. And, uh, you know, they, um, a lot of sponsors, a lot of teams. Um, very good positive community reaction. Um, yeah, there are ecstatic that's, it's one of their bigger fundraisers, So,

    Speaker 2 (08:43):

    Yeah. Do you have any idea how much you've raised over 25, uh, races?

    Speaker 3 (08:47):

    Oh, um, gee, there, there are some years that they've made 60,000. 80,000. Um, I, I'd say they're probably 1, 1 50 at least, maybe more than that. Like

    Speaker 2 (09:03):

    Per year?

    Speaker 3 (09:04):

    No. Okay. Per year. It's, I I think it's like 30, 30 to 50,000, I think. Yeah.

    Speaker 2 (09:09):

    So they've probably raised half a million dollars at least over the last 25 years. Eh,

    Speaker 3 (09:14):

    I, Yeah, yeah. It's up there. Um,

    Speaker 2 (09:17):

    And that money goes into community work that the Rotary Club supports, right? Yes.

    Speaker 3 (09:20):

    Mm-hmm.

    Speaker 2 (09:21):

    <affirmative>. Wow. I'm interested to know more about the, the history of your family. I remember going to high school, we didn't really have any cultural awareness or sensitivity. Oh, they run the Chinese restaurant in town? Yeah. Or from China, But at that time, Canada, this is the 1970s. Uh, Canada was a very white waspy, uh, British, uh, and European, uh, heritage country. What, tell me a little bit about the backstory. You were born in Stratford, you said born in Stratford, but your, but your family is from China. What part of China and when did they come over?

    Speaker 3 (09:57):

    Okay, so Southern China. So they came from a, there's a little village in, um, Guangdong, which is the, the southern province that adjacent to Hong Kong.

    Speaker 2 (10:09):

    Hong Kong,

    Speaker 3 (10:09):

    Yeah. And, uh, my dad lived in one village. My mother lived in a nearby village, and, um, 19, I think it was in 1947. Okay. So I heard the story when I went back to Hong Kong and China with my parents back in 1987. So we were at my dad's village, and one of the relatives was, was walking us down Main Street. And then the relatives whispers to the, to my father. And, and, uh, he looks over just the guy, and he said, That's the guy. And, um, then, then that guy, that older, as an old man, um, probably about my dad's age, and I think my dad was like, probably in his fifties back then. And, uh, walks over to my dad, shake, they shake hands, have a chat for like five minutes, and my dad gives him a, uh, a hundred dollars US a hundred US dollar. And, and my, and that, that was normal. My, my dad was like passing, passing money to friends and relatives, just, you know, he's, he's, he's the guy coming back from overseas and

    Speaker 2 (11:24):

    Coming back from Gold Mountain <laugh>.

    Speaker 3 (11:26):

    Yeah. Basically, Yeah. So he, he was passing up to, to relative, and, and he, he gave this guy a hundred dollars, uh, us us bill. So, and then my dad explains to me this guy, 19 47, 19 47, 46, just before the communist were doing okay. They were doing the, the long march through the countryside. And, uh, they're, they're taking over the country, basically. So they were,

    Speaker 2 (11:54):

    This is Miles's long miles.

    Speaker 3 (11:55):

    This is Miles's, Yeah. Miles's soldiers. So,

    Speaker 2 (11:58):

    And this is two years before the Communist Revolution in 1949,

    Speaker 3 (12:01):

    Right? Yeah. So this guy tried to extort my father. So he, he said back then that, you know, you, I wanna turn you into the, uh, to the soldiers when they come. Uh, he, I think he tried to extort money or somehow he, he was kind of threatened. So my father and my mother that night, left and went to Hong Kong. So it's, it's like an hour, I think it's a, an hour drive to, to the, uh, to the boat that takes him to Hong Kong. So that night, they left. 40 years later, this guy and my dad talk. So, you know, this guy's just, he, so he's still there in, in China, in that same, same village, just, uh, kind of a raggedy old looking guy who, uh, you know, he, he might be still a small town, small time hood still. Uh, but my father comes back as a successful businessman, so,

    Speaker 2 (13:01):

    And gives him a hundred dollars

    Speaker 3 (13:02):

    Hundred dollars. Looks,

    Speaker 2 (13:03):

    Look who's successful now, and thank you for, for encouraging me to leave,

    Speaker 3 (13:08):

    Right? So, you know, I, I look at this and I think, Wow, possibly I could be still, I could be in China right now if, if that didn't happen. So we're kind of thankful for this, uh, guy who, uh, extorted tried to extort my father to, and, and he left with my mother to, uh, Hong Kong.

    Speaker 2 (13:29):

    So 19, late 1940s. So what year did, uh, did your parents actually come to Canada?

    Speaker 3 (13:35):

    Okay, so my father, I think, uh, 1952,

    Speaker 2 (13:42):

    Right? So that was five years roughly after the lifting of the Chinese Exclusion Act, which was in place for a number of years. It prevented families from coming to Canada mm-hmm. <affirmative> to migrate. So it was the first 1950s were the first wave. So where, when your father and mother came to Canada, where did they eventually, where did they have their eyes set on

    Speaker 3 (14:03):

    Settling down? Well, my father actually came first. Okay. And then it was a couple years later than that, my mother came then, and then later my, my sister came. Uh, so my father came, he, he, uh, somehow, I'm not sure how he ended up in Stratford, but he was, um, kind of going from Stratford to New York and to Windsor. So he was a, he's a, he started as a, a waiter at, uh, Golden Bamboo. Golden Bamboo used to be where Kiwi craze or what's there now, Uh, the pulp is there now. Uh, so that, that was, um,

    Speaker 2 (14:42):

    The Chinese restaurant,

    Speaker 3 (14:43):

    Chinese restaurant, East Stratford. Yeah. So Golden Bamboo. And then, um, my father left to go to New York, um, I think he was a waiter there too. And he, and then went to Windsor, and then there was a, uh, the owner of Go Mabu had a job opening to train a chef. So he offered my father to, uh, come back as a chef. So he came back, Uh, my mother came over, and, uh, I know we, they lived, and I, I didn't live there. We lived at the, the house of the Owners. There was a, a restaurant, a Chinese restaurant, and I believe it's the first Chinese restaurant in Stratford Stratford Cafe, which is where that empty space, where the old Beacon Herald was. So on Ontario Street, uh, there's that old, I, I think it's still empty there. Um, but that, that was Stratford Cafe. And my father lived at their house, and then we moved to actually the owner of the Golden Bamboo Owner's house. And, uh, so my, my father worked there for quite a while, and my mother did also when she worked, when she came to, came to Stratford. Um, so, and then it was, it was 1970, my, my father decided to, uh, to start his own restaurant,

    Speaker 2 (16:13):

    Which is still in business today. Yes. And it's called The House of Jean, or Jeans restaurant?

    Speaker 3 (16:18):

    Both Jeans, Yeah. House of Jean was our buffet restaurant from about 1981 to about 2001.

    Speaker 2 (16:23):

    Right. And you recently celebrated 50, uh, years.

    Speaker 3 (16:26):

    We were, yeah. 50th, Um, yeah, 20 20, 20, Um, in

    Speaker 2 (16:32):

    June, just before the co Just during covid.

    Speaker 3 (16:34):

    During Covid, Yes, yes.

    Speaker 2 (16:37):

    So, culturally speaking, when Chinese migrants first came to Canada, the men came over to work in, uh, in the railway and manual labor. Uh, and then in the fifties and sixties there were Chinese laundries and, uh, restaurants. Why do you think it is that those were the, uh, areas of entrepreneurship that the Chinese community pursued? Why restaurants? Why laundries?

    Speaker 3 (17:03):

    Well, we were, okay, so ideally, um, and I'm not quite sure back then, but I think, uh, okay, so originally the, the, the Chinese came because of the, the railroad. Um, and then when the railroad's done, they, they were in still in the small communities. And, uh, there was the need. And they, they were happy to stay there. And then there was a need to, uh, you know, the restaurants, they wanted to work. So restaurants was, uh, was something they could do. Um, dry cleaning. Yeah, there's cleaning cleaners that, that wast our thing. Uh, even, even at one point there was, uh, the, the convenience stores also, they were, they were big into, um, I, I know a lot of my relatives that have come over, you know, they, uh, immigration wants 'em come to small, small cities that they end up going to, to eventually go, go to the big cities. But, uh, I know, um, back then, uh, yeah, restaurants were, you know, every, every little railroad town would have this, a Chinese restaurant. And those, that style of, you know, North American, Chinese, Canadian restaurants, we call it CSU style restaurant. So we were part of that, that, uh, style of Chinese restaurant. So they, yeah. So back then, yeah, there every little, little, uh, town had a, had a, had a Chinese restaurant,

    Speaker 2 (18:41):

    And yours is one of them. Yes. And in the Chinese community, which is probably very small in Stratford, when you were growing up, like many small towns, we see the Chinese restaurant for Westerners as the place for food. But how was it also, uh, a support and a hub for the Chinese community? There must have been things happening after hours or upstairs. What, what, how important was the restaurant as an island for your culture?

    Speaker 3 (19:06):

    Okay, so back then, in the seventies when there were, there were a few restaurants, maybe like three or four Chinese restaurants. And, uh, yeah, the, the workers, most of the workers had their own, own little house. So, um, although there were some workers that later that would come to Stratford for the week and then go back to their, their homes in Toronto. Uh, but basically back then there were, like, I would count five families of Chinese. There's five Chinese families, so like 50, maybe ch 50 Chinese people in town. Uh, we all spoke Cantonese, cause they're all from southern China. Later on, there'd be an influx of, of, of different Chinese that spoke Mandarin, which really, we really don't have too much to do with them because just the language barrier, we just have nothing in common with them. So back then, the families, the, the men were the breadwinners that worked at restaurants.

    Speaker 3 (20:13):

    Um, you know, some of the, the, the women worked in factories. My mother worked in, in some factory back then. Um, yeah, there's, there are, there are a few kids that, uh, you know, I, I I that I, that I knew, um, that were from Stratford, uh, same high school. Uh, yeah. So one of, one of the cultural things that, uh, with Chinese restaurants, well, okay, so we, they had ping pong tables. I remember the gold mabu, the, the, the, the one on the one by Queen Street in Ontario Street when they first opened that one up. So the original gold Mabu was, uh, downtown the, the second one. And then the eventually closed the, uh, the first one down. But the second one there was, in the basement, there was ping pong tail. So we always played ping pong. That was, that's one of the things that, that we always did.

    Speaker 3 (21:12):

    Um, you know, my father did, and, and the other cooks did. Um, so that was definitely a, a, a cultural thing for us. Um, the other thing was gambling. So the men who liked to gamble back then, everybody, they're all smokers also. So, um, there would be, and usually at a restaurant, uh, once a week, not, not all, not all year, but there, there're kind of like spurts of, uh, oh, there'd, there'd be like, uh, weeks of, uh, you know, every, every Monday night when, well, usually Monday night, because Monday was, uh, either they're closed or was a slow night or, or a day off, or for a lot of the cooks. And, uh, there'd be gambling at the, at the restaurant. Uh, yeah, usually at the restaurant. I don't think there was too much at a, at someone's house. So even our restaurant above the, uh, on the second floor, there'd be, there'd be a gambling table there. And it's usually, Do

    Speaker 2 (22:17):

    You play Majong or,

    Speaker 3 (22:18):

    Oh, no, no. Majong was for, usually from like older people actually. Okay. So this, this was like sky nine or Pi go, uh, which is the dominoes with the, uh, red white spots on it. And, uh, it like, boom, boom with slap, slap, slap. And it was, it was noisy game. And, and then, uh, guys were, there'd be like bottles of scotch or, or whiskey there, and they guys were smoking there, and they, they played through the night. And, uh, all, there's some stories about, uh, cooks that, uh, lost their, their paychecks, uh, during the, these games. And, uh, yeah, usually they, they ended up, uh, finishing at about maybe one o'clock, two o'clock, but sometimes they went like six in the morning. So,

    Speaker 2 (23:02):

    So here you are probably a teenager, a young teenager at the time, observing this, right? You also worked in the restaurant, right? You helped out. What, what'd you do

    Speaker 3 (23:10):

    There? I always worked at the restaurant. Um, so I was eight years old when my father started the, the restaurant. And our original restaurant was 38 Eerie Street. So I was eight years old. I got paid a dollar a day, so seven bucks a week. Um, and I, Okay, so we didn't have,

    Speaker 2 (23:33):

    What did you do? What was your job?

    Speaker 3 (23:35):

    Uh, I would, I would clean cleaning, uh, washing dishes by hand. Uh, there's vegetables to like, take the leaves off celery, um, peeling, peeling skins off onions, A bit of cutting, uh, cleanup. Yeah, that's helping my mother do things. I mean, I, I think my mother taught me how to make plum sauce back then. And back then it was, you know, we, we had to grind fruit on a, on a, a hand grinder and then mix it. And then, you know, we made our own plum sauce back then. And my mother grew her own beans sprouts back then, so I would, I would help her there. I would tag along anyway, so. So

    Speaker 2 (24:19):

    What's it like inhabiting at that time? Two worlds. You have the Chinese community and island of its own with the dominoes going upstairs and working in the, the store. And then on the other hand, you're in the western, uh, Canadian community going to high school or public school. Right. How did you come to terms with those two worlds?

    Speaker 3 (24:41):

    My world was the restaurant, cuz I, I, I didn't know any different, like I thought, doesn't everybody do this? So I would, I would go to school, I'd go to the restaurant for lunch, go back to school, come back, I'd do my homework at, at the restaurant. So my, my parents were always at the restaurant, so I grew up in the restaurant, you know, and, and everybody else, I guess, uh, I don't know, they, I guess they didn't have the restaurant life I did so that I, this was normal for me. So I didn't think I lost out on, you know, a western lifestyle or I, I guess, um, cuz this, this was normal to me, to me. And I, I did, I had my, my my Canadian friends and, uh, you know, I, uh, yeah, so there's the, there's the school life that I transitioned to my, my restaurant life.

    Speaker 2 (25:41):

    Talk to me about, uh, uh, racism. I mean, uh, cultural racism we're seeing unfortunately arise in anti-Asian racism. It was probably a little bit more overt, uh, open, people would call people names back then. And, uh, tell me what you experienced and how it, how it kind of, um, uh, influenced you or, or had an impact on you.

    Speaker 3 (26:03):

    Okay, so I was a skinny kid when I was young. Um, I remember being 12 years old, five, eight, a hundred seven pounds. So I was really skinny. So I was, I was an easy target to, uh, to, uh, try to bully. So, um, it was just Chinese, you know, a a few Japanese, that was it. We, we did, we, we hadn't seen the Vietnamese come in until like, probably mid the mid seventies. And, uh, you know, we didn't see the Koreans or we didn't see the, you know, the ties. Uh, so it's mostly, or may, maybe it's my perception, but I, I only saw, uh, the Chinese and then there, there a few, few, uh, Japanese. So,

    Speaker 2 (26:49):

    So you encountered some bullying and did it end up leading to anything severe for you? Or you just put up with it?

    Speaker 3 (26:55):

    Okay. Well, when I was 12 and I, I was just, and I'm, I'm still skinny, skinny kid back then. So

    Speaker 2 (27:03):

    You're still skinny today?

    Speaker 3 (27:04):

    I am actually. Even though you run a restaurant? Yeah. Yeah. I, um, yeah, yeah. I'm not that, uh, I'm not a big guy. So I was walking by city hall back city hall and back then there was, um, I think a Avon Deli. There's, there's a pool hall there for sure. And then I walked by and these two guys who were, they were 21, they were, and I, I'm 12, I'm a skinny Chinese kid, and, uh, they, they kind of racially mouth me off. And, uh, I get pushed and I, I get, uh, I get, uh, hit in the face. Uh, someone call, uh, I think it a tourist or someone calls the police and then they arrest this one guy. And, um, yeah, it was, it, it is racially motivated. So my response to that was, uh, okay, I started lifting weights, just, just, I lifted just to look normal. I, I, you know, I, you know, I put on a bit of weight during high school and, uh, you know, fairly fit back then. But, uh, that, that was a result of that bullying or beating wasn't a beat down. But I, I, I got punched and, uh, got my glasses broken, um,

    Speaker 2 (28:22):

    And the police took action.

    Speaker 3 (28:24):

    They took action, but my father did not wanna press charges. He had a restaurant didn't want, I guess he didn't want the, uh, bad publicity. So, so that, that kind of stuck with me that, uh, that kind of upset me that he, uh,

    Speaker 2 (28:43):

    Didn't let it go. Didn't stood up, didn't stand up for you. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

    Speaker 3 (28:46):

    Yeah. So,

    Speaker 2 (28:48):

    But that was a different era back then, and perhaps there were different motivations today that wouldn't happen, I don't think.

    Speaker 3 (28:53):

    No, I don't think so. Okay. So yeah, I, um, so for me, I ended up, you know, the, I ended up hanging around pool hall, shooting pool during, during high school. So I think it was me trying to be, uh, accepted in that kind of culture. So these guys were like, I don't know, redneck, uh, long haired guys who, uh, hung around the pool hall. And I, I ended up, um, hanging around the pool hall shooting pool for during my high school years, lifting weights.

    Speaker 2 (29:27):

    You wanted to be a tough guy so you could deal with the tough guys who were lower you. That's

    Speaker 3 (29:31):

    Right. Yeah. Wow. That's right. So I've, I've always been aware or wary of yeah, that there, there, there, you know, most people are generally nice and good, but there's a possibility that I could run across someone racist. So I, I am always kind of on guard that, you know, this, there's a possibility that, that that could come out some time again. So

    Speaker 1 (30:03):

    You're listening to the Stratford slice with Craig Thompson. Check out our website, the stratford slice.com, and be sure to subscribe. And now back to the show.

    Speaker 2 (30:16):

    So you grew up in a small town in, uh, a largely white town in the Chinese restaurant business. Then what happened, uh, after high school, you decided, obviously to leave to pursue higher education. What, what, what did

    Speaker 3 (30:29):

    You do? I left for, I went to, I went to university for one year, and, um, that didn't work out. So I went, actually, I went for pH ed for one year, a western in London, Leonard Ontario. And then I, I went after that, um, two years, George Brown College for restaurant management, which was a change of from sciences to more a business type of career. And then I went for two years for marketing at George Brown. So even though I did go to school, I lived in London, I would regularly still come back to Stratford and work on weekends at the restaurant. Um, even when I went to George Brown, it was, it was a regular occurrence that I would come back to work. So even though I live somewhere else, and, uh, I'm experiencing another city, um, I was still very connected to the restaurant coming back.

    Speaker 2 (31:33):

    Did you face any pressure from your parents to come over and take over the restaurant?

    Speaker 3 (31:38):

    Well, I think they wanted me to, uh, they, I think they expected me to actually. But I, I remember when I was, I think I was 30. Okay. So I, I came back, I actually came back to, to work when, after I got married. So about 92 I moved back to Stratford, working full time at the restaurant with my, and my wife worked also. And so I got married when, of like 29, so at 34. So I'm working there regularly, and I asked my dad, when can I take over the restaurant? And I'm 34, and he says, You're not old enough to take over the restaurant yet, <laugh>. I'm 34, so my father actually ends up working till he's like 70, so, well, maybe he's right. I don't know.

    Speaker 2 (32:32):

    So you ended up taking over the restaurant at what age then?

    Speaker 3 (32:35):

    Okay, so I took, uh, 2004. So, um, ge I think I'm in my, uh, forties anyway, Uh, yeah, definitely in my forties. Yeah, just whatever the math is. Uh, forties, Let me see. Forties. Yeah, I'm, I'm about 44, 40, 42, 44. So

    Speaker 2 (33:02):

    Middle-aged. You took

    Speaker 3 (33:03):

    Middle-aged? Yeah. Yeah, that's fine. That's fine. There's, there, there are things that i, I wanted to do before I took over anyway. And so,

    Speaker 2 (33:13):

    But did you ever imagine coming back to Strat?

    Speaker 3 (33:16):

    Because I, I, when I, after high school, I thought, Nah, I'm not, I'm not taking over the restaurant. Like that's, that's not what I wanna do. And, um, yeah, well, well, I took, uh, my first career choice was more, more science based and, uh, phed and I like, I like doing sports. Um, and then, and then I switched over to, you know, I didn't do well in, in, at, at university. And so I switched over more to, to business then. Yeah, there's, there's a thought of, yeah, maybe, but yeah. Um, but, and I, I tell this story about my son who is, uh, 27 now, and I, and I tell everybody, if he comes back to the restaurant, then he, and he takes over the restaurant, then he has failed <laugh>. So, so he, he's done all his schooling, you know, I, I'm hoping he, he, um, does well in the, the, the path that he has chosen so far. But I never thought I would take over the restaurant, but, um, you know, strange things happen and I'm here.

    Speaker 2 (34:29):

    And your wife has Chinese background too, right? Yes. She, you met her in Toronto?

    Speaker 3 (34:33):

    Um, no, actually, I, um, met her through a relative, and she's from Macau, um, which is just off, um, off China, um, near, near Hong Kong. Um, so she's originally from China, Immigra to Macau, then she went to Hong Kong. So I actually met her in Hong Kong. So that was in the, uh, late nineties, no late eighties actually. So eventually I, I, I brought her over and, um, yeah, she's worked at the restaurant with me.

    Speaker 2 (35:07):

    So what's it like, uh, for a spouse, a woman, your wife, to come from a major metropolis, a major city like Macau or Hong Kong, and, uh, come to live life in a small town? And I ask this from experience because my wife, uh, came from Tokyo to Stratford. So, uh, it's quite a, a culture shock, but how was, what's your wife's name?

    Speaker 3 (35:30):

    Uh, Shirley. Shirley.

    Speaker 2 (35:31):

    What was it like for her coming from that, uh, bustling area of Macau or Hong Kong, wherever she was last and coming to this small town in the middle of the rural countryside? Well,

    Speaker 3 (35:42):

    She really likes Macau, which is a little more relaxed than Hong Kong. So, um, okay. So we did live in Toronto for a while. Um, but, uh, okay, so we, yeah, culturally it, it, it's different. The weather. She doesn't like, she doesn't like the, um, the cold weather. Uh, I don't like the hot weather cuz so when I was there, it was like I was sweating, he wouldn't break a sweat and I was miserable, like in, in that, in that weather. So over here, um, so a lot of trips to Toronto, Chinatown, so especially for, for food, um, that, that's kind of important because her mother lives with us now. So getting, getting, getting access, access to food was, was kind of important. So, so couple, even now, every three weeks we might go to Toronto. Um, yeah, there, there's some customs that are, that I had to get used to, um, that, um, were a little different. And, uh, so yeah, there's some, there's some definitely some cultural clashes there. Yeah. Yeah.

    Speaker 2 (37:00):

    I wanna go back to your upbringing and working in the, the, the Chinese restaurant at the age of eight. Talk about the Chinese work ethic, because for me, growing up, I left, uh, went home from school and I played, I had fun and did that kind of stuff. And there is something about the Chinese. Can you explain or define the Chinese work ethic?

    Speaker 3 (37:22):

    Okay, so my observation, um, Chinese workers will put in a lot more hours. Um, definitely will, will stick to tasks longer. Uh, the, he, the 44 hour work week is, that's peanuts compared to what, what, uh, the, the majority of of Chinese do. So when we hired cooks, their salary was based on 60 hours. And people think that's, uh, outrageous. Um, that's normal for us. And I remember when, um, Jack Ma, who owns Alibaba, which is the Amazon of the art of the eight of, uh, Asia, um, and he would said, he said that workers, if they wanna be successful should be working 80 hours a week. Which, you know, over here, that's, that's outrageous. How, how can he, uh, how can he say that? But that's, that's that, that work ethic of if you wanna be successful, you gotta put that time in. Mm-hmm.

    Speaker 3 (38:34):

    <affirmative>. So my father had a amazing work ethic. So, um, I think, uh, yeah, he would work seven days a week. There might be a day off there, but, uh, generally he, he works seven days a week. Um, yeah, he, he would, uh, go in there in the morning, um, come back there, there, there'd be other workers there, he would come back. And then back then we, we were open, I think during the week till midnight during the weekends we were open till two 30 and he start in the morning, open up, he'd be there Wow. At night. So yeah, that's where my work ethic comes from, is from him. And sometimes I think I'll, I, I'll never match his work ethic, but, uh, but now I, I think I might be matching that right now, the way things are going

    Speaker 2 (39:34):

    Now, the restaurant world has changed, the culinary world has changed. People's tastes, uh, have evolved. Were more sophisticated on not just tastes for Asian food, but tastes all over the world. As people have come to Canada, restaurants have been influenced by that. What, how has that, um, uh, influenced what you called the, the chop suey type restaurant? We still love going on New Year's Day or wherever time of the year, people have traditions. Oh, I want to go to, to jeans to get my, uh, fix of, of Chinese food. How has that, uh, changed over the last 10 or 20 years?

    Speaker 3 (40:12):

    Well, the chop suey style of restaurant Chinese restaurant is, is kind of phasing out. Cuz if you look at the, at the, uh, at the malls and, and the, those type of chains like Gold Chin, I think is gone. Uh, there's a man walk that I think they are, that chain is, is gone. Um, yeah, it's, uh, it's, it's, it's changing. And part of the problem is the workers who did CSU restaurants, they're, you know, they've either passed on or they're, they're aging out. Um, the newer workers who are, and they, and they're from a different, different part of China. They don't even speak Cantonese. So they're, they're a different type of worker. Um, they're doing different stuff.

    Speaker 2 (41:06):

    They're going into it and startups and banking and things like that, right?

    Speaker 3 (41:10):

    Yeah. Yeah. So the lack of Chinese workers that do shop to restaurants, um, aren't there. So there's not as many opening up, there's not as many taking over the, the old restaurant. So there's that shift. So, um, it's phasing out. Like there's, they're definitely, um, fewer and fewer.

    Speaker 2 (41:34):

    So there could be a day when small towns, or even medium sized towns don't have a place where you can get your fix of egg roll or

    Speaker 3 (41:41):

    Yeah. That's moving, moving

    Speaker 2 (41:42):

    By pen,

    Speaker 3 (41:43):

    Or that's quite possible. We're, it's, it's still very popular here. Um, but, uh, you know, once, uh, our restaurant, uh, you know, I don't know how long we, we will keep on going, but, uh,

    Speaker 2 (41:58):

    But there's nobody in the next generation right now to take it over. Right.

    Speaker 3 (42:02):

    So, Yeah. Well, most of the kids don't wanna do it because they're their, you know, the goal was to, for your kid to be better educated and successful and not have to do all the hours that you did. Yeah. So they're not taking over their parents' restaurants and, uh, the immigrants, uh, Yeah, they're, they're not as readily jumping into chop, so style restaurants either. Yeah.

    Speaker 2 (42:34):

    Back when I was, uh, you and I were growing up, I think there were three restaurants that had Chinese, uh, backgrounds. There were the Commodore restaurant, the Golden Bamboo and, uh, jeans. Right. And only Jeans remained now mm-hmm.

    Speaker 3 (42:47):

    <affirmative>, Right. Of those, uh, three original,

    Speaker 2 (42:51):

    And there was a couple of smaller restaurants. There's, uh, a few takeout places in Stratford Yes. And one of them all. But, uh, yeah, it's, uh, there could be a day when there isn't a main street, uh, Chinese restaurant in Stratford mm-hmm. <affirmative> or any other small town. Yeah.

    Speaker 3 (43:07):

    Yes.

    Speaker 2 (43:08):

    And why is it that when you drive around these small towns, you see Chinese and Western,

    Speaker 3 (43:14):

    Uh, Chinese and Canadian Chinese and Canadian, Chinese Canadian. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, well, okay.

    Speaker 2 (43:20):

    Cause you could order a hamburger as well as some chop.

    Speaker 3 (43:23):

    Sweet. Okay. So the, our, Okay. Well, I, I think the thought is if you're going off for Chinese food and you got a group of 10 people, there might be one person that doesn't like Chinese food, so we got something for them. So you can still come in. So that's, that's the thought. Chinese and Canadians, people ask what's Canadian food? And, uh, so <laugh>, I have to explain it to them. So yeah, just, uh, you know, your burger and fries and stuff

    Speaker 2 (43:48):

    Like that. So to make sure that you had something to please everybody. If you didn't like Chinese food, you could have something else. Yes. It's a restaurant to eat at. You can eat whatever you want. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>.

    Speaker 3 (43:57):

    Wow. Right. There's an interesting, um, so we have this dish called Chicken Oriental. So when I grew up, we were called Orientals. And I, I, and I, I was just having a conversation with my teenage staff and I mentioned, I mentioned that, uh, you the word Oriental, and she thought that was really offensive. You know, I grew up and Oh, that's, that was normal being called, you know, you're Oriental. So in, uh, I and mid nineties, that's when we, um, had to be called Asians. So I, I didn't get it back then. I, I don't even remember movies like, uh, uh, there was, uh, you the dragon with, uh, Mickey Rourke and, uh, John Lo. And, and they, they mentioned Orientals, that, that, that was normal back then, then, and then there's this shift to, um, you gotta be called Asians now. And I, I didn't, I didn't get it because my, even my, my, my son's best friend who is Indian, who is like India Indian, and he said he's Asian, said, Oh, okay, well that's, that's kind of strange for me.

    Speaker 3 (45:11):

    I thought Asian were all, you know, me, black, black hair and look like us. But, uh, so it's a broader, broader, um, range of, of countries and, and people. So, and I, I guess what I'm reading is Oriental is offensive because we didn't give ourselves the name Oriental. So that's kind of like, you know, the, um, indigenous people being called Indians and, uh, say, Well, we didn't, we didn't pick that name. So that's, that's offensive. So yeah, Oriental, that was a strange one for me. So that all of a sudden, no, you're not Oriental anymore. You're, you're Asian now. And now my my joke is, um, I was born Oriental in the mid nineties. I transitioned to Asian, and now I live as an a openly Asian man.

    Speaker 2 (46:07):

    It's remarkable. You're, you're a couple of generations removed from China. Your, your, your parents came over, uh, before the Communist Revolution. Uh, so I'm not asking you because you're connected to the Chinese, uh, current affairs, but there is a growing division in the world now between east and west. Between east and west. And what do you view as that, uh, uh, that dichotomy now where China is going and the rest of the world's perception of that?

    Speaker 3 (46:41):

    Well, China is becoming more and more powerful. Um, well, I'll tell you my, my wife's perception, and she, she liked Donald's Trump, Donald Trump's way of handling China, as in, you know, they, they're, they're kind of, you know, stealing intellectual property and, uh, they can't be trusted, um, yeah. That they're influence, their, their power is, is just too in influential. So, and I have relatives who during the cultural revolution who lost things because they were, you know, they, they, they had, they had, um, stores, they had some wealth, and then during the cultural revolution, they, um, lost all that. And then they were kind of ostracized, uh, in their, their towns. And then, so yeah, there's, there's, uh, there's some bad feelings about the, the Chinese government. Um, and I, I recall my cousin who, um, came here for high school and, and we're talking about Tibet, and, um, her perception was the Chinese government is helping these people. That that was the, the narrative that the, the government of China was telling their people that, Oh, Tibet's not a, not oppressed. They are, we're helping them. So they, they, um, definitely control their, their media and, uh, what, what they want their people to believe. So yeah, they're, uh, they're tricky. So, and the, the, the recent stuff, uh, yeah, it's hard to say. Um, you know, they, they, they want to take back Taiwan. Um, so that's tricky what, uh, the US are doing right now

    Speaker 2 (49:03):

    Here in Stratford, we had, uh, a controversy that our city government got a little in trouble for, uh, uh, Chinese glass plant was gonna relocate to Stratford. The community was divided over it, and in the end, the, the glass plant didn't go ahead. And during that, uh, crisis, I'll call it a crisis, there was some, uh, rise in anti Chinese, anti Asian, uh, discrimination. Um, what's, looking back on that particular controversy, what's your, your view, did stratford's, uh, elected officials, were they a little bit naive in, in moving ahead with that? Or what was, what's your perception?

    Speaker 3 (49:46):

    My perception of dealing with China is you gotta be really careful because they, they can reneg on a deal just like that. They, they, um, I, I've heard of so many incidents where you, you make a deal, you know, some kind of trading, some kind of selling a product, and then they'll steal your product. That's, that's what they're kind of famous for, is for not developing their own stuff, but, uh, stealing intellectual property, um, sending students here to learn things and bring it back to, to China. Um, yeah, dealing with, um, Chinese companies is, is really tricky. And my question was, why did they have to do it here? So there, there's some environmental issues with that glass plant. Um, they wanna do it here, so we, we inherit all the, um, environmental problems. Is that why they, they want to do it here? Um, yeah, sure. The, the, um, they save money on, on shipping, but, uh, yeah, there just seemed to be a little more, Hmm, what's going on here? That's, that's, that's what I thought. So, um, I, I think that the, the city, yeah, probably a little naive to, uh, push it, try to push it through. Um, yeah, dealing with, with Chinese companies is, is, is tricky.

    Speaker 2 (51:27):

    So with that in mind, where do you see the, the, the future of Stratford? You can talk as a local entrepreneur, as a business owner, as a Restauranter, uh, we're seeing obviously a lot of changes in the culinary landscape. Where do you think, uh, our community has the potential to grow and, and thrive in the future?

    Speaker 3 (51:48):

    Well, I think with the coming outta the pandemic, there are a lot of struggling restaurants still. Although, you know, the, the, the town has been busy. You see a lot of tourists around restaurant dining rooms are, are filling up. Um, but there's either, um, still probably hurting or they're banking on success in the future for success. Um, although there are a few expansions going on. Um, and, and good for them, you know, they, they found that, uh, that way to, um, that mix to make money. Um, but I'm still a little cautious, so I, gee pandemic just, just coming out of it now and then, uh, and then I'm, I'm not, I'm still not, uh, sure about the future. Um, most of these restaurants, I would say probably all the restaurants have this government loan that they have to pay back next year. So that's, that's another consideration. Um, the culinary business and Stratford is, is still very strong, very, very, uh, very upbeat. But, uh, I think there's a bit of caution there too. You know, you know, there have been a few closures recently, so,

    Speaker 2 (53:21):

    And you've cut back your hours. Have you?

    Speaker 3 (53:23):

    We have cut back our hours. Our, our issue is staffing. So we used to hire cooks from Toronto. We can't hire any cooks from Toronto now. There's, there's so much work in Toronto right now. They're not gonna come to Stratford to work. Um, so we're basically short two full time cooks. So we close Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday. I'm still working seven days a week. I'm still working those hours so I can have enough to be ready for, for my weekend.

    Speaker 2 (53:57):

    So you're cooking yourself now?

    Speaker 3 (53:58):

    Well, I've always have. I've always have. But I'm, I'm taking

    Speaker 2 (54:01):

    But you're it right now.

    Speaker 3 (54:02):

    Well, my wife cooks also, but all the prep is, is basically me. So,

    Speaker 2 (54:07):

    Uh, so getting all the food ready Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, so that Thursday, Friday, Saturday, your busy days, you've got all the food ready to go to make the dishes.

    Speaker 3 (54:16):

    Right. So we've basically, our, our most busy times that we are open now, uh, we've, we don't, haven't been doing lunchtime, it's just supper hour Thursday, the Sunday. So when we're open, we're busy, minimal staff. Um, I think I have a staff of 10 now. We used to have a staff of probably 22 when we had dining room. Um, dining room doesn't make sense if, if, if, if I have dining room, expand my hours, you know, I, I'm working 75, 85 hours a week now, so am I gonna worry a hundred hours if, if I open up my, the dining room, You know, I can't do it. So,

    Speaker 2 (54:58):

    And it's all takeout now.

    Speaker 3 (55:00):

    It's all takeout, right?

    Speaker 2 (55:01):

    Yeah. And one thing about Chinese food is, it's not like flipping a burger. It's elaborate. It's all the same ingredients, all mixed into different dishes. The, so you have to have everything ready so that on a moment's notice. Yeah. Tell me about the

    Speaker 3 (55:14):

    Process. Yeah. Okay. So we, we, we cut our vegetables, you know, you know, usually, usually the, the day before, and, and they're, they're prepped. They're, they're kind of portioned and, um, so for the, basically there's a, there's a walk station, there's a fryer station, so the walk station, you know, we have our, all our pre prep done, and then there's three walks. Um, so when we get an order, and we don't, we don't make like hours ahead of of food, so we, it's basically the, or comes in, we look at the order, um, there's the boiling water in the middle, you know, we, we cook our vegetables, we stir fry our meat, and then, then the vegetables from the, the boiling water is put in to the, the

    Speaker 2 (56:04):

    Stir fry

    Speaker 3 (56:05):

    With stir fry with the meat. We finish it off, you know, spiced sauce. That's it. So every dish takes about three, four minutes. Um, that goes to, to the packer. So the fryers, the fryer end, you know, the grills we have to make ahead. So we, we do by probably we 800 to, um, well, average is probably like 800, 800 a week. We make a week. And then cruise time probably called more like 1200 egg girls a week. Chicken balls. I, I'm constantly frying chicken balls. Um, yeah, we go through quite a bit. Yeah. Uh, it's a lot of work. It's, it's a lot of work. It's, it's a lot of, a lot of prep work. Um, it, it's very labor intensive, so a lot of prep work for a short amount of hours. You know, we are only open, you know, four 30 till eight, most of the, uh, the week from Thursday, the Sunday, um, then you, yeah, there's the fryer and then there's the walks and there's all your sauces. So there's a bit of work there.

    Speaker 2 (57:16):

    Well, as someone who's eating at your restaurant for many decades, for me, it's comfort food. And, uh, uh, i, I respect the amount of hours you put in. I hope, uh, that somehow we're able to retain the, that, uh, that flavor and that menu in Stratford for, for years to come. Hopefully you can find some way of keeping the business or the, the tradition of, of Cantonese food in Stratford. Yeah.

    Speaker 3 (57:42):

    We'll, uh, hope, hopefully we can, we will see what we can do.

    Speaker 2 (57:45):

    And you'll be on, on the riverbank, I imagine, or in the boats for the Dragon Boat Festival?

    Speaker 3 (57:49):

    Yeah, I have a couple teams that I, uh, I coach and, um, there's the eye doting, so ceremonies that I, I help supervise. So I will be down at the river on race day on September 17th. And, uh, my teams are out in the water, you know, two to three times a week practicing. So, uh, I'll be on the water also.

    Speaker 2 (58:11):

    Well, Ken, thanks very much, uh, for being on the Stratford slice. I'm very grateful for you stopping by.

    Speaker 3 (58:17):

    Thank you, Craig. Thanks for having me.

    Speaker 2 (58:18):

    My guest today has been Ken Gene, the founder of the Stratford Dragon Boat Festival, and the owner of Genes, uh, restaurant in Stratford.

    Speaker 1 (58:28):

    You've been listening to the Stratford slice with Craig Thompson. For more episodes, check out our website, the stratford slice.com, and be sure to subscribe. The Stratford slice is produced by Ballon Ran Entertainment, Southwestern Ontario's number one digital media studio. If you have a great story to tell and want to be on the podcast, please reach out to us through our website, the stratford slice.com.

  • Speaker 1 (00:00):

    The following is a podcast from Be and Ran Entertainment.

    Speaker 2 (00:05):

    Hello, it's Craig Thompson. This is the Stratford Slice. My guest today has been described as a one man philanthropic powerhouse. When you spent your entire career in IT and finance and you're offered a huge promotion, what choice do you make? Well, when you're Bruce Whitaker, you cash your chips in and you move to the small town of Stratford. My guest today, Bruce Whitaker, welcome to the Stratford's Slice.

    Speaker 3 (00:53):

    Oh, great to be here. I'd love, I'm gonna use that as my title now. The Powerhouse Fill of Powerhouse. That's, that's, I'm gonna have to change my cards. <laugh>,

    Speaker 2 (01:03):

    What brought you to Stratford? Why give up a, a lucrative career in tech and it, and, uh, and, uh, you're not a, an old guy. You're middle aged, so why, why cash in?

    Speaker 3 (01:15):

    Well, I think, you know, I was raised on a ranch, so I think that's sort of where it starts. And, um, you know, being a part of a community is a great thing where people know if you're happy or sad, you know, if you're alive or dead. Um, and since that time, I've lived in a lot of cities like Singapore and New York and London, and of course Toronto and Vancouver. And, um, you know, you can, there's anonymity being in a big place like that. And, uh, it's a, it's a bit of a lonely feeling. So I wanted to get back to, to my roots. So was either to go back to the ranch and, uh, and to deliver, um, calves and minus 40 degree weather in January, February, or it was to come to Stratford and, and enjoy the restaurants and, and the festival and all there is that Stratford offers. So it was pretty easy choice.

    Speaker 2 (02:04):

    You were in Toronto at the time, and you'd obviously become familiar with Stratford. You'd been here frequently. Is that the, that the

    Speaker 3 (02:11):

    Case? No, infrequently. So we came, they had the hockey was the hockey night in Canada, Hockey

    Speaker 2 (02:17):

    Day in Canada,

    Speaker 3 (02:17):

    Hockey Day in Canada. So we came in, uh, Friley Cold day in, in February for that. And I fell in love, um, with the city. Um, I just liked the sense of, um, of people knowing each other and caring for one another. And, um, we were just attracted to that. Um, and we came back and we decided this was gonna be the place we looked throughout the United States and Canada, and, uh, we were very attracted to, to Stratford.

    Speaker 2 (02:43):

    Now, were you gonna come to Stratford and just live a, a life of leisure, or were you planning to be as busy as you are now?

    Speaker 3 (02:51):

    Um, I, I think I'm, I'm always gonna be busy, you know, I, I'm a busy person and, and I like to contribute in a lot of different ways. So I wasn't good. No, I wasn't gonna be sitting, um, on the couch and waking up at 11 o'clock and then having something to eat, going, having an afternoon nap.

    Speaker 2 (03:08):

    But you didn't, you didn't have a plan though, did you?

    Speaker 3 (03:11):

    Um, not really, You know, I think one of the things, we have three boys and all three of them have been adopted from very difficult lives. And, uh, we were living in Parkdale in, um, in, uh, Toronto. And it's a hard place to keep track of your kids, um, in Toronto and make sure that they're doing well. And the other part was, uh, you know, when they say something hits you in the face and, and you take action, what was a summer? And we were living, um, at that time in Parkdale, sort of in the middle of the city, and it was terribly polluted. And, uh, I couldn't get my taste. So everything that I tasted, if I had a steak sandwich or if I had a Cheeto, they tasted the same, you know, just a very du taste. So coming from a ranching background where the there is always quite crisp and clean, and then being confronted like this, it was very difficult for me to raise children in that sort of environment. So,

    Speaker 2 (04:04):

    So you turned down the big promotion, and did that come as a shock to your colleagues that I'm, uh, leaving? Or what, how did that come about?

    Speaker 3 (04:11):

    Well, I, I worked for, um, I sort of started off with TD Banks, so I worked internationally with them, um, as well as in North Battle for Saskatchewan. That's part of the intern that's, I managed a branch there. Um, and then I worked in international banking with td and then I moved, they wanted me to move to Indonesia and um, and to Singapore. And that was the time, I dunno if you remember, but there was, um, sort of the, not the caning, but the slapping of, of gay people, Um, at that time, and this is when I was coming out and I didn't think Singapore or Indonesia would be the best place to come out. And, um, you know, I'd probably have to go back into the closet. So, um, I reached out, uh, or I had another offer from Sen Young in New York. So I joined Ernst and Young in New York, and I consulted, um, throughout the United States.

    Speaker 3 (04:58):

    And then, uh, I got involved in a, in a technology company, which we sold, um, to in Texas. Um, so don't, don't all of a sudden think of millions and billions of dollars. You know, we did half decently well, but not what we expected. But it, you know, I gave me enough money to have some freedom of choice and, um, I just wanted to get back to a simpler way of life and, uh, and to really be able to taste my food and enjoy it, and to be able to talk to people and be attentive. Um, and that's why I, I came here

    Speaker 2 (05:29):

    When you, uh, came out of the closet, uh, Alberta is in your roots. What, and Alberta is perceived as this kind of redneck, uh, ranch country where you're from. Right. How did that go, uh, go over, uh, with your people in Alberta, your family? How did that, uh, come about?

    Speaker 3 (05:47):

    Well, I was late coming out and, and really because of that reason, I was in my thirties when I knew when I was 10 that, that I was gay. So, um, you know, it was probably 23 years of hiding it, um, which is a really difficult part of my life. And, um, so I saw what was on the tv, so I didn't know anybody in gay. I don't think they have gay people in Alberta, or at least that's what I thought at the time, <laugh>. And, um, cuz you know, and then I saw the parades of the pride parades. Yeah. And I, and that I, that didn't really resonate with me, um, to be on a, on a, a float. And so it was a, it was a very focused image of what a gay person was, and it, and it wasn't who I was.

    Speaker 3 (06:29):

    Yeah. So that prevented me from coming out. And I remember when I came out, um, I first came out to my sisters, and of course they were, well, not of course, but they were fine with it. And then, um, I was going to tell my parents and I sent them a letter and, you know, part of it was that I was probably a little fearful of the response, but I think more importantly, I wanted them to have time to reflect on the letter and, um, and then talk to me. And I was in New York at the time, I mailed the letter. My sisters went to the mailbox and got the letter. They knew it was coming. They knew it was coming. Yeah. And they wanted to be there for my parents. So, so they showed up and they opened the letter and my dad told me right away.

    Speaker 3 (07:12):

    And so I, I was, um, probably the 30th story of, uh, of an office billing in New York, and I saw the, my parents' phone number come up, so I knew what it was about and I didn't answer. Um, you know, and so it was, it was sort interesting because, you know, I was a little bit fearful. Um, so I let it go into voicemail and, uh, my mom came on and she said, Oh, I'm so glad you don't have cancer. Because when you start these letters, of course, you know, you start them with, Oh, the worst thing has happened to me, you know, and this is, you know, it's been such a difficult, um, dilemma for me to face. And then so she said, um, No. Oh, you don't have cancer, You're just gay. I'm so happy, <laugh>. And then my dad's response was, you know, he's sort of a funny guy.

    Speaker 3 (08:00):

    And he said, As long as I can call you my happy son and not my gay son. So that's a compromise. Right. Well, it was funny. And then I was working in Vancouver at the time, the next two weeks, and I had them come out, um, to see me. And I thought, Well, what better way to sort of break the ice and take them to a comedy club? So we went to the comedy club, and I'll never forget it, we were sitting in the front row and the comedian was bringing up gay jokes, you know, and some of them were very inappropriate, and it was very raw to me, obviously. And I said to my mom and dad, I turned to them, I said, We're leaving. And, uh, my mom said, No, we can't leave. They're gonna heck less. We, you know, we're right in the front row. So we had to sit through this whole routine of, um, it felt like every joke was about being gay. And, um, so of course I had a, I had a conversation with the owner afterwards, but that was, uh, that was my coming out experience. It

    Speaker 2 (08:54):

    Was negative about being gay, the ne negative, it was negative gay, gay jokes. Yeah. Wow.

    Speaker 3 (08:59):

    Yeah. Well, negative. And, you know, is I think one of the, I don't really want to repeat them, discriminatory. One was more or less saying that, you know, I would love to be gay as long as I didn't, you know? Yeah. You know, um, didn't like sex that way. You know, it was just those sort of things. It wasn't, it was just, um, questionable jokes. And of course, for me, no matter what it was, it was, it was difficult. Right. So not the best choice. Craig.

    Speaker 2 (09:21):

    So in Stratford you have a, a partner and you raising three teenage boys together. So tell me a little bit about your family situation.

    Speaker 3 (09:29):

    Yeah, so we, we Andrew's our son, we, um, we adopted him, um, he's now 24, so we adopted him when he was seven. And he had been in eight families before. He joined us at the age of seven. So he had a very difficult life. And we, we raised him in Parkdale and then we decided to move out here. So he moved out with us. And then when we moved out here shortly, the year after, um, Children's Ace Society approached us and said, um, you know, we have a disruption and there's two brothers that were bonded to a family, but the, um, the family, the last minute decided against the adoption. So they said, in July, would you take these two brothers? And I wasn't really necessarily looking to for more children. Um, but Andrew, our eldest, wrote us a letter on how important it was to give an opportunity for, for children and, and how it has changed his life.

    Speaker 3 (10:27):

    And that he thought it would be a really wonderful thing to do. And I think he also was looking to have brothers. Um, so we decided to adopt them. We met with them. And, um, one of them was probably, he's going to grade four and he is probably at a grade one level, um, English and maybe grade two reading. So <laugh> as you know, you know, we were at this point in education system where we don't fail children. So I went on the first day, September of the first, and I went to Mr. Ali, who was the, the principal at the time. I said, You know, we have a great opportunity here. We have to hold this, um, boy back, um, being my son because, you know, I just couldn't see him, you know, uh, prospering in the school system. So luckily enough he went and talked to the school board and we were all able to hold him back a year. And, uh, he was on five medications. Um, and now he is totally prospering. Wow. He has a girlfriend. He's, uh, 16, turning 17. He has, he's on no medications. Um, he's a lovely boy, um, has a beautiful girlfriend who was just fishing yesterday with his, I guess, arian in-laws <laugh> at the age of 16. It's hard to call them in-laws, but, uh, but uh, yeah, he, he's doing extremely well.

    Speaker 2 (11:41):

    Great. That's a, a great story. Yeah. And these boys were all from troubled backgrounds. Were they,

    Speaker 3 (11:48):

    Um, you know, it's, it's really a lot of times when it has to do with adoption, it's usually young parents that, that, uh, you know, they're not use of parenting. They maybe haven't had the best parents themselves. And that was the case here. So there was a father that was in Detroit and a mother in Windsor. Um, so, um, I think she's probably, you know, I'm, I'm sure she's learned from that experience. Um, but she was young, right. And she was having a number of kids. So,

    Speaker 2 (12:15):

    So that's your personal philanthropy, but you've also done stuff in general for youth in Stratford and the, uh, involving skateboards. Can you tell us about skateboarding?

    Speaker 3 (12:25):

    Well, you know, it really started in Toronto and we lived in Parkdale. And, um, I worked, I've worked, I guess for the last 20 years with inner city youth, um, in Parkdale. And, um, it was interesting, when we moved out here, I had a camp for them. So I brought out 25 kids to, to Stratford that had had no idea what this was. Cuz they're used to living in a city where they've never left Toronto in their lives. So you can imagine coming on a bus and seeing the, the stripe line, they had never seen, they didn't know what the passing lanes were. They had no sense of that. So we had a really great week here. We did a lot of interesting things. We went to farms, but of course we, basketball was sort of the central core of what we did. But we were at the Knox Church and they learned how to cook. Uh, we did some speeches, we did a lot of different things. So it was quite the experience. And the os put us up. So 25 kids, I had got cos from the Canadian Baseball Hall of Fame, they gave us the cots. So we had this one room that housed 25 kids for the week. And we had, uh, one shower

    Speaker 2 (13:32):

    In Knox Church.

    Speaker 3 (13:33):

    No, sorry, this was at the Oars house. Oh. And then we would, we would run down to the y every morning and then we would cook dinners at the Knox Church. But, uh, you can imagine, um, 25 teenagers, um, showering. So it was probably a four and a half hour. Um, that shower was running for four and a half hours every day.

    Speaker 2 (13:51):

    And tell us about the skateboard. I was asking about the, you built and raised money for a skateboard park. Why did you do that? And tell us what the, what the project was all about?

    Speaker 3 (14:00):

    Yeah, so that, the reason why I brought the kids in, in, um, in Parkdale, um, a lot of times youth are, are underrepresented and they really don't understand how to operate in an adult world. And when I came here in 2013, or I guess it was 2000, oh no, sorry, we came in 2010, 2013. I was, uh, I heard about the skateboard park, the potential of it being here. And the city was looking at it to be out at Romeo, um, by the garbage dump. Um, and the kids that were representing themselves, um, you know, going through a, you know, a system of bureaucracy, it can be very frustrating and challenging. And a lot of times kids will just present once and then that's, that's it. So they really need some support and guidance. So I got involved and I, I presented on, in at 2013, I presented to the council and I said that, you know, we need to celebrate our children in, in the, in the core of our city and not push them to the fringes.

    Speaker 3 (14:59):

    Right. We wanna celebrate them. Anyway, I wasn't all the way in. I wasn't a skateboarder and it was fairly new to me. So we lost the vote and it was a re regret of mine because I wasn't at the top of my game. Um, and then a year later, um, somebody came to me, a community member and said, you know, would you like another opportunity? And I said, Yes. You know, I definitely would because it was a regret. And this time I was prepared. Um, and we got, we got the vote to put the skate park in and next to

    Speaker 2 (15:29):

    The railway station.

    Speaker 3 (15:30):

    Yeah. Yeah. And I guess there, the challenge was that the community in that area had used, were used to sort of the park being their front yard. Right. Cause there wasn't much going on in that park. So it was very quiet. Um, you know, and that's what they got used to. So can you imagine having that and then the next thing you have, you know, probably 300 kids every day that are using that park.

    Speaker 2 (15:52):

    But as I recall, you got some pushback with people not really understanding what skateboarding is and who are the youth that take part in that. And I believe, you know, the police were consulted and all that kind of stuff. So were you surprised at the pushback on that front that they were worried about, Oh, vandalism or bad kids or

    Speaker 3 (16:12):

    Whatever? No. Cause there's been a history of that. You know, skateboarding culture started in California and it was, you know, children were that were really, you know, pushing against society and, and there was good reason they were doing that and started off in the swimming pools and, uh, and now it's, it's now an Olympic sport. So this is the first time and there was a medal sport in the Tokyo Olympics. So I think that's really addressed a lot of the stigma. So I wasn't surprised because, you know, they've been sort of addressing that for a long time. And me being from sort of a minority group, you know, I'm sort of aware

    Speaker 2 (16:47):

    Of an outsider. Yeah,

    Speaker 3 (16:48):

    Yeah. Or even being gay, you know, they're, you know, the, and being youth, you know, sometimes, you know, you're considered as, you know, like you're a bit of a minority cuz you gotta communicate. You already articulate. So yeah, a lot of people saw it as, you know, is this a place where the bad kids go to spend their time? And, um, and that's definitely not the case.

    Speaker 2 (17:11):

    And looking back on the last few years, how successful has the skateboard park been? Well,

    Speaker 3 (17:15):

    I've gotta tell you one story. Like the, probably the, the, the story that resonates with, with me the most has been the deepest. I went there one day and, and this, uh, 18 year old came up to me and he looked me in the eyes, shook my hand, and he said, You saved my life.

    Speaker 2 (17:33):

    Wow.

    Speaker 3 (17:34):

    And I said, Well, what, what do you mean? And he said, Well, I was in meth, I was in drugs, There was nothing in this city for me. And he said, Now that we have a skate park, I have a passion. Wow,

    Speaker 2 (17:46):

    That's great.

    Speaker 3 (17:47):

    So, um, you know, know that that's, that was the biggest gift that I have received from building that skate park. Wow. So the, you know, it's been well used. Um, you know, I have to say that every year I go and I knock on the, on the neighbors of the street that were some, most of 'em were opposed. And it's the hardest thing I do every year, um, to go knock on the doors. And I, I try to get some feedback and find out, you know, where we're at and what we need to improve upon. And, uh, um, the first year I did it, I knocked on this one door, the, the the largest opponent to the skate park. She didn't open up her door, but she, she opened her door open another screen door. And I said, Oh, you know, good to see you. And she said, Yes, and what are you here for? And I said, Well, you know, we've had this year and I just wanted to see how it has gone for you. I know that you weren't in support of it. And she said, um, it's gone better than I expected.

    Speaker 1 (18:44):

    You're listening to the Stratford slice with Craig Thompson. Check out our website, the stratford slice.com and be sure to subscribe and now back to the show.

    Speaker 3 (18:56):

    And she went on to say that, um, but, you know, I don't know what will happen in the future. So I went back to the, the kids that day and I said, Here's a life lesson. You know that to be a neighbor, you have to be a good neighbor continuously on, uh, ongoing. So maybe we've been okay this year, but we gotta make sure that we continue to be good neighbors.

    Speaker 2 (19:18):

    Wow, that's great. We're gonna move on to your, uh, light bulb moment, no pun intended, but way back when Thomas Edison, uh, had his first job in Stratford as a railway telegraph, uh, operator, I believe. And, uh, you, uh, discovered a connection with, uh, an old building.

    Speaker 3 (19:40):

    Yeah. The, the, um, it was one of those occasions where there was a building for sale, um, on at 46 46 Ontario. And, um, I didn't seize the opportunity. And you know how you have those regrets where you say, Oh geez, I should have bought that place and I didn't buy it. And it was one of those winters that I was here was lots of snow and it was rather depressing winter. And I, I had depression, you know, I was, I was sad that winter. And so that sort of compounded it because, you know, you're at home and you're not necessarily doing a lot. And then I didn't take that opportunity, well the next thing, the year after it came for sale again, so I bought it and, um, we, the second floor of it where, which is where Thomas Edison lived, had not been used probably for 50 years.

    Speaker 3 (20:32):

    So my job was to be the contractor and to renovate that building. So I engaged an architect, um, because I had heard that there was issues when you're buying an old building and renovating it. And I wanted to turn it into an inn with a, a cafe. And then Candy Cakes, which is a bakery, is at the back on York Street. So he said, Oh no, there's no problem. You know, you only need one egress, which is an entrance to the second floor. And, um, so I bought it with that input. And the next thing, the city approached me and said, I wouldn't require two egresses or two entrances, One at the back and one at the front. So of course my anxiety level, you know, increased quite rapidly, <laugh> because, you know, I really needed to have three hotel rooms in there as well to make it profitable a venture.

    Speaker 3 (21:24):

    Um, so, you know, I was trying to think, well, how do I do this? Because it is a fairly small place. It's a 20 foot frontage on York Street and a 10 foot frontage on, on Ontario Street. So I went home because the architect didn't have any answers. I went home and, uh, Andrew had his math textbook. So I pulled it out and I've, I've always said to him, I said, You know, math is practical, You know that you're learning math cuz you know, as kids we always say, Well, why am I learning this? And I said, You'll, you'll find out later in life that the lessons you learn in math you're going to use in the future. So I pulled out his math book and we figured out the rise and run of the stairs. So we figured out, you know, how, what the height of the stairs would have to be to get it to, to go in there.

    Speaker 3 (22:07):

    And we found out that we had to lower the, the, uh, second floor by three feet to make this work according to our rise and run. Plus we had to sort of contour it within the building. So we took all the joy out and we lowered the whole floor three feet and put all New Joyce in and then rebuilt it. So <laugh>, you know, it was, it was a great example to Andrew that, you know, here we are figuring out, uh, essentially a math problem that would've affected our profitability as far as a venture. And, you know, we were concerned if it was gonna work or not. And it's turned out quite well. So we turned in, turned the three hotel rooms into sort of bit team rooms, one sort of focused on, um, music and it has, um, um, Justin Beaver on the wall of course.

    Speaker 3 (22:53):

    And then the other one is where Thomas Edison lived, as you said, he was a telegraph and he's in the one room, um, that's sort of focused on his legacy. And then the other room is on the main floor behind the cafe. So it's, it's turned out really well. And I kinda see on the, on the, uh, really what helped us is on July 1st in the Toronto Star, you know, they typically have a celebration Canada. So they had the Canadian Olympic team, they had the rcmp and they had a couple of other things that were typically clean, probably maple, um, um, products, right? And then they had us, and then each of those different areas were a part of the newspaper. So we were the home section. So then they wrote about our story and how we renovated Edison. So that really helped to getting, you know, the communication, the promotion of, of the in out to, to the Toronto community. So that

    Speaker 2 (23:44):

    Project wasn't enough for you and the old Canadian Tire Store, which evolved in, into many different stores over the year, right on the, probably the most prominent corner in Stratford across from the, the courthouse where a very well known children's toy store was for many years. We call it the family and Company Building. You decided to do this one more time,

    Speaker 3 (24:05):

    <laugh>? Well, yeah, and you know, I wasn't looking to, um, Paul Velman, um, you know, thankfully brought me into that, that that project, that opportunity. And I had walked by there on numerous occasions and I sort of felt bad because I was, um, one of the customers of Family and Company, the toy store. And you know, it just breaks my heart. Every time somebody walks down there, Well, where's family company? The toy store's not there anymore and it's the building sort of, you know, losing its, uh, integrity. Um, so Paul asked me to get involved. So I got involved and I was a contractor of, of the build. And then, and I was the designer in the decorator. And, um, we built it. And, uh, my background at Ernston Young, um, you know, I was a sort of an efficiency consultant, performance improvement. So we went from having really nothing on the, the bottom two floors to now we have a Japanese takeout restaurant called Hung Ninja.

    Speaker 3 (25:00):

    Um, Mike's from Tokyo, Japan. So she has a space there. We have an event space called Amigos. We have a kitchen, Gregor Ger Connors Antiques was there before and it's still there. And then on the first floor we have Ulysses who runs, uh, the, a Cuban lo um, cocktail bar. And then we have a la that runs a Mexican restaurant and then we have five hotel rooms on that main floor. So I've really maximized the space and uh, and it's been really a family of, of people that are participating. Cuz Ulysses is the owner of his, the, the cocktail bar, a Laro owns the, um, the, um, taco shop. And then Michael owns her and her husband own her, and

    Speaker 2 (25:39):

    Also a real diversity of people who are in it. Uh, Cuban, uh, Japanese,

    Speaker 3 (25:45):

    Brazil, No, Mexico. Mexico,

    Speaker 2 (25:46):

    Yeah. And, uh, and Japanese.

    Speaker 3 (25:49):

    Yeah. And you know, it's interesting because Ulysses was born in Havana, Cuba, and then he went and lived in, in Russia for nine years, moved back to, to Havana and then moved to Ukraine and then moved back and then moved here. And during the pandemic was when we were building this. So, you know, was very stressful time. And he phoned me and he said, You know, Bruce, I've gotta meet with you. And I said, Oh, you know, he's gonna want to get out the lease cuz of the pandemic. So I said, You know, what can go worse? You know, I'm, I'm losing a commercial tenant. So I met up with him and he said, You know what, this pandemic has been really good for us. And I said, What do you mean? He said, It's allowed us to be thoughtful. It's allowed us not to be rushed to do something. It's allowed us to take time to reflect on how we want to do it. And I'm very thankful for that.

    Speaker 2 (26:41):

    That's great. And then congratulations, he's got, you got the, uh, James Anderson Heritage Award and, uh, was that for the Perth County Inn building the building you're talking about? Yeah,

    Speaker 3 (26:53):

    That was for Perth County Inn

    Speaker 2 (26:54):

    Because you had to go through a lot of hoops, uh, heritage wise to get that renovation done.

    Speaker 3 (26:59):

    Yeah. And I think, you know, that there's sometimes a lot of criticism about what you have to go through with heritage. Um, I'm sort of a proponent of heritage. Uh, I mean, it, it costs us more as builders, um, to renovate properties, but, um, it wasn't, it wasn't a lot of hoops, you know, and, and there are probably pretty, um, important, um, areas that I had to address. So, um, I wasn't, uh, I didn't find it necessarily arduous a process.

    Speaker 2 (27:29):

    What is your vision for the future, uh, of Stratford? Because you have, um, been, uh, vocal in sharing your thoughts on, on where the city should go. And I'm wondering, uh, if, if those opinions arose out of your interactions with the city and trying to do what you've tried to do with your Edisons in and the Perth County and, and the heritage work that you've been doing?

    Speaker 3 (27:53):

    Well, I, I guess the first thing is that I've, I've traveled a lot around the world. Um, you know, we were just most recently in, in the Middle East with my children. Prior to that we were in India, um, and, and Pakistan and, um, over there. And then as on my own, I've traveled a lot and lived in a lot of different places. And I have to say, Craig, that I feel blessed to, to live here. And, uh, I absolutely love it here. I think it's a beautiful place. I think it's full of incredible people and I want to give back to it. And, um, I think that we're in a world right now where we, we tend to be focused on self survival of protecting our own families on our own interests. And, um, I'm sort of taking, um, a different approach. I think we need to be more activist.

    Speaker 3 (28:41):

    Um, I don't think the city of Stratford can do everything, um, to make the city better for us, um, because they have a task list and they only have so much time to spend on each area. So, for example, with the skate park, I could only, you know, they, they got it done, you know, do they want to expand on it? No. Do I want to? Yeah, because now the kids have become so much better, right? Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Um, so when we look at the city, we have a huge opportunity, um, being the, what people call the Cooper site. But before the Cooper site, it was called the Grand Trunk, um, lands, and that's 18 acres with a 4.2 acre building. So there's been so much focus on what do we do at the building, and very little focus on what, what do we do with the lands?

    Speaker 3 (29:29):

    And I think that that's a huge opportunity for us as a community to address the needs that we have around housing, around our demographic being somewhat of an aging demographic. We're six to seven years older than the average for, for Ontario. Um, I think it can be built as a, as a neighborhood. And, and I do recognize and acknowledge that there's a lot of people in this community that are just so tired and exhausted, just, you know, demolished the building, get on with it. And I'm really excited because I think we sort of in a point where we can address a lot of our needs through that, through that project. And, uh, we're creating an advocacy or we just started to create an advocacy group to really drive action forward on that site so that we can at least see some potentially housing, intensified housing. We can see a new Y M C A that is not necessarily just a building, but can have the local community food center that can have some affordable housing. So lots of really interesting ideas,

    Speaker 2 (30:31):

    But your view is really more community involvement in the decisions being made for the city. Is that what you're, uh, proposing?

    Speaker 3 (30:37):

    Yeah, I think if, if we, if we want a wonderful world, I think, I think we have to play our part as individuals. And, um, it's been a challenge for me because there's been times where I've been involved and I've felt rather lonely because, um, you know, I felt it was me sort of facing the, the issue. Um, and I understand that people are busy, you know, people don't have the time to necessarily get

    Speaker 2 (31:01):

    Involved and maybe afraid to speak out.

    Speaker 3 (31:03):

    Maybe, maybe that's one of the things. And I think that's exactly the time. If they are afraid or if they are busy, I think our community needs to be the priority, um, for us as individuals. And if we truly wanna see the community that, that we all have a vision of, then we all have to participate. And, and it shouldn't be work. It shouldn't be difficult. It should be something, it should be a love of our life to make this place better.

    Speaker 2 (31:26):

    Very important theme that has come up over the last couple of years for various reasons is, uh, the role we can play in, in the environment and making sure that Stratford is a climate friendly, uh, community. Do you think, um, that the project that is being envisioned for the Cooper site has some potential as a model for environmental sustainability?

    Speaker 3 (31:48):

    110%. So, uh, you know, I just had a breakfast with a, with a friend of mine that's not necessarily a climate change nire, but he believes that, you know, the ice age, all these things are, are less impacted by us. And my response to him, don't we have a responsibility regardless to protect the lands that we live on? Um, and I, I truly believe that. So for example, at Perth County in, we had green grass on the corner. I took out the green grass and we planted 650 indigenous plants. The first day I did that, um, it might a little hokey, but I was worrying, and somebody walked by and said, Well, why are you doing that? And why are you watering each plant? Like, couldn't you hire somebody or couldn't you do a, have you ever heard of the soaker, um, hoses Whitaker? Like, are you an idiot?

    Speaker 3 (32:35):

    You're out here for three and a half hours every morning. And I said, You, you know, this is the best thing I do in today is feeding the planet. And the first day I was there, I don't know, these two robins came up to my, my feet. And, uh, whatever that meant, you know, I just symbolized that we have to be better with, with nature in our environment. And since that time, I just relish seeing the, the butterflies and the bees that are now a part of that. And it's just the first year. So I think that it's in a real example of what we can do in this community as individuals, but we can also, as you're saying with the Cooper site, we can do something as a community. And I sort of see where there's, there's some toxic land. It's not as bad as what we thought it was, but on the east, on the west side, um, where the, the fuel came to power the plant, that's, that's quite toxic. Um, which is either an opportunity to put a parking, um, structure or an opportunity to build a, um, a park, an InnerCity park that maybe will remediate the soil naturally and bring it back. So yeah. I'm, I'm, I'm very much for, um, treating our planet better.

    Speaker 2 (33:43):

    What is your philosophy in all the things that are happening at the moment? We seem to be at a turning point I in society, you know, we've got, uh, an increasing amount of conflict. We've got the climate change, uh, situation coming upon us, and then all of these, um, stories coming out about abuse and neglect and how we've treated people of all, uh, cultures, uh, you know, indigenous cultures and everything. What lessons can we draw from that, and why do you think it's happening all at the same time?

    Speaker 3 (34:14):

    Well, it's overwhelming. You know, I'm tired, I'm frustrated. Um, you know, I have a difficult time watching the news, so I think I'm like everybody else. To me, what it means is that we need to spend time with our family and our family members, because those are the people that are gonna be driving the future of this planet. And my concern, um, is that we're not spending enough time with our, our children and, um, to, to really foster, um, their understanding of the world in passing on strong lessons. Um, so I think it starts with the family. I think we have to do a better job with our youth, and that's part of the reason why I spend so much time with the youth is because I, I don't think we spend enough time and they're so incredibly important. And as you said, it's a very transformative time.

    Speaker 3 (35:04):

    So I often turn to youth for answers, whereas I think when I worked at the bank, I felt like I had to be 30 before I could say something in a board meeting or in a, you know, an important meeting because I wasn't worthy of saying anything. Now I look to young people, you know, they, they're so involved in culture, they're so involved in technology, they're so involved in so many different areas. I think we have to start treating them. Obviously there's a maturity level, but I think we have to start treating them as, uh, bring them to the table a little bit more, um, because they are, are ultimately the future. So to answer your question, yeah, it's a difficult time, but it's also an exciting time, um, because it's, it's a time where I think we need people to rise up, um, people that truly believe in and in the future, and that have some say in where we go as a community.

    Speaker 3 (35:55):

    And that's why I think Stratford can be become so incredible because I think we, we want to, I, I'd like to see other leaders, like people consider me the leader. I'd like to see other leaders that say, um, that whatever, if let's say it's art, that there's a leader of the art within our community, rather than relying on the city to do art, let's rely on people that, that galvanize others to say, Hey, let's do something within our, our city with respect to our, or if it's respect to education or whatever your passion is, let's hear from you, but go beyond your family and contribute to the community.

    Speaker 2 (36:30):

    Well, Bruce, that's a great thought to wrap this up on. Thank you so much for, uh, coming and, uh, chatting, uh, with me today on the Stratford slice.

    Speaker 3 (36:40):

    Well, it's been a pleasure, Craig, and I really appreciate all your contributions to, to Stratford as well.

    Speaker 2 (36:45):

    Thanks, Bruce. My guest today has been Bruce Whitaker.

    Speaker 1 (36:49):

    You've been listening to the Stratford Slice with Craig Thompson. For more episodes, check out our website, the stratford slice.com, and be sure to subscribe. The Stratford slice is produced by Ballon Ran Entertainment, Southwestern Ontario's number one digital media studio. If you have a great story to tell and want to be on the podcast, please reach out to us through our website, the stratford slice.com.

  • Speaker 1 (00:00:00):

    The following is a podcast from Be and Ran Entertainment.

    Speaker 2 (00:00:06):

    Hello, I'm Craig Thompson, and this is the Stratford Slice. Today we take you back to the 1890s and a local murder that shocked the country.

    Speaker 2 (00:00:37):

    Well, I'm so happy to have my guest, John Godard here today because we've been talking about this show and this idea for two or three years. Right now, John is a historian, a journalist, uh, an author, and he is the author of a book called The Man with the Black Ese, which, uh, uh, tells the story of a shocking murder in the 1890s in the Listal area. And John just happens to be in Stratford today after a, a speech in Milton, uh, or a talk in Milton yesterday. So I nabbed him off the street, and here he is in our studio. Welcome John.

    Speaker 3 (00:01:13):

    Great to be here, Craig. And what a studio this is, uh, fantastic place you've created here.

    Speaker 2 (00:01:20):

    So tell me about Milton. What were you doing in Milton last night?

    Speaker 3 (00:01:24):

    Uh, this was scheduled a couple years ago and was interrupted, of course, by the pandemic. Uh, so we finally did it last night, two years late, three years ago, I, um, launched this book at the Stratford Library. It was the hundred and 25th anniversary of the murder, exact the exact day, The Man with the Black Belize. And, um, so I was doing some talks and finally caught up to Milton last night.

    Speaker 2 (00:01:50):

    So tell us who the man with the Black Belize was and, uh, a the story of this, uh, really intriguing and tragic, uh, murder in Listable in the Listable area.

    Speaker 3 (00:02:03):

    It was a terrible murder, but it was a murder that, uh, ironically really kind of drew me to Perth County and really appreciate Perth County just because of what the way the people here responded. Uh, the man was from St. Heen, Quebec. Originally, he had this terrible, tragic, uh, abusive, uh, childhood. And at the age of 13, just started wandering around all, all across, uh, the United States. He joined the Merchant Marine at one point out of Maine, went to the Caribbean and Liverpool and Egypt, and one point, and at the age of 50, he was crossing Ontario to go to Michigan. He thought he could find work there, and then he found that he couldn't find work there, and he started back along the, uh, Grand Trunk railway through Elsa, Craig and Lukin, and St. Mary Stratford, and then up to Listal.

    Speaker 3 (00:03:04):

    And just as he was coming into Listal, he, he, he, he, he took the railway tracks. So he was heading into town, and at the same time, a 13 year old girl, Jesse Keith, was coming from town back to her farm from some errands. And he approached her on the tracks and tried to assault her. She fought him off. He bopped her on the head with a rock dazed her, dragged over the fence across a plowed field in, into what I call the swampy wood, a kind of a marsh wooded area, and killed her. And, um, and then mutilated the body. It was, it was a terrible, terrible thing. Nobody had ever heard of such a murder, because this, this girl was a, a, a, a beautiful child, very well, loved

    Speaker 2 (00:03:55):

    The daughter of a farm family.

    Speaker 3 (00:03:57):

    Yes, that's right. A a farm family of high standing. Um, it was a father and mother and three children, very nice looking family. Uh, Jesse was the middle child, and some railway workers came along afterwards and saw this, um, commotion. They could see the, the scuff marks on the tracks and see and see some blood. And they saw that something had happened, and they went to, um, uh, they realized, uh, that it must be, uh, the, the Keith family saw, but

    Speaker 2 (00:04:33):

    She was reported missing first. So there was a search party, uh, for a while. So tell us about that.

    Speaker 3 (00:04:38):

    What happened was that these, uh, these railway workers came along. Jesse had been in town to pick up the newspapers and some pot barley for her mother. And she was coming back, and the railway workers found these scattered papers on the tracks, and the pot barley and the newspapers had the address of the Keith Farm on them. So they went to find William Keith right away, he was out to plowing his field with ours. And, uh, so they brought him back. They followed these drag marks across the field and into the bush. They spent about three hours looking and then found the body sort of, uh, half buried. What was extraordinary, and this is what I really talked about last night, what was extraordinary was how he, William Keith, the father, would've come back from that search and found this body. He came back to his house and he kept a log book, a a kind of ledger, you know, where he noted, um, what he spent, uh, what he, what, what, what he earned, sometimes, what the weather was like. And I found this ledger in the bottom of a banker's box in the Stratford archives. You know, I I, I saw about three ledgers, and I thought, Oh, I, I hope there was one from 1894. And there was, And I turned, and October 19th, excuse me, right at the bottom of the page, he had October 19th. This, this day, Jesse was murdered.

    Speaker 3 (00:06:22):

    And what an entry, I mean, the saddest entry in any diary anywhere. And this is a, a real kind of historic treasure for Perth County that I really wish was on display somewhere, either at the archives itself or maybe at the, uh, museum. Uh, I just have in all my archival research anywhere, I've never come across a, a, a, you know, this is in his own pen and ink. The father,

    Speaker 2 (00:06:52):

    That simple statement,

    Speaker 3 (00:06:53):

    Tragedy, Jesse was, and then there's nothing else. Let, there's nothing else in the book. The rest of the book is blank. He just stopped writing. Wow. Uh, very, very powerful.

    Speaker 2 (00:07:03):

    And were you able to trace any descendants of the family, or was that not part of your objective?

    Speaker 3 (00:07:09):

    Well, uh, yes. I try. I try. I did try. Um, there were, uh, re there are relatives around, but extended relatives. So what happened was, uh, there were three children. The eldest daughter died two years later of heartbreak. Uh, she never recovered from the shock of that. And the younger brother, um, he died young too. He was in his thirties. Um, and I don't know the cause of death. And the mother too died of, uh, I mean, she never recovered from the murder either. Uh, William Keith the father, he lived into his nineties, and so he did well, but he was more engaged in the community, and somehow he <affirmative>

    Speaker 2 (00:07:58):

    Some of the support or whatever he needed.

    Speaker 3 (00:08:00):

    Yes, that's right. Yeah.

    Speaker 2 (00:08:02):

    Wow. So, at that time, we're talking 1895. Um, the police services in the region were probably very, uh, limited. So how did the authorities initiate an investigation and who did they bring in?

    Speaker 3 (00:08:21):

    The Ontario government had, uh, appointed a Provin provincial detective John Wilson Murray. He was the start of the, uh, the O ppp, uh, from his office. It just expanded into the O ppp. So he worked everywhere except Toronto. And what I discovered in my research is that he is the true life inspiration for William Murdoch of Murdoch's Mysteries. Uh, now, William Murdoch was a Toronto detective, and, and John Wilson Murray was a provincial detective, but they were kind of based on, it was based on the same character. Uh, so he came in to investigate. And, you know, I've gotta say this is one of the inspiring things about the story is how well everybody did their job. The prosecutor did, you know, very conscientious, hardworking, the police chief, uh, McCarthy and the sheriff, and the, uh, prosecutor and the crown attorney, and the, the, this detective just put it together. Look, there's no witnesses. They had to build a circum. First of all, they had to catch the killer, and then they had to, uh, build a circumstantial case to get a conviction.

    Speaker 2 (00:09:37):

    And how did they find him? What was his name and what were the circumstances? How long did it take? That kind of thing? They

    Speaker 3 (00:09:43):

    Did it very quickly. We think that, um, today we have instant messaging and, uh, good communications, but we forget that, uh, they had the telegraph, and that was ing. And, uh, every little place had a railway station with a telegraph, uh, key. So they got this word out very quickly. Uh, John Wilson Murray interviewed people, got a good description, uh, because people had seen this stranger. He was from Quebec, just wandering around. And, uh, people noticed him in Elsa Craig. He had stolen a little small, uh, black suitcase, which is, uh, which people referred to as the Black Belize. And, um, that became a big clue in the case. So Murray would say, Did you see the guy with the black ese? And they would give, uh, they had a very good description of him. And he was caught, Let's see. The murder happened at noon, 10 afternoon on Friday, October 19th. And they had him by Monday afternoon.

    Speaker 2 (00:10:53):

    What was his name?

    Speaker 3 (00:10:55):

    Ameda Chattel.

    Speaker 2 (00:10:58):

    And in your research, are you certain that the investigators found the right, uh, individual?

    Speaker 3 (00:11:06):

    Yes. Uh, there were a lot of clues. The black police was the big one. It was found semi buried at the murder scene. And the circumstances were, uh, I mean, they found the woman in Elsa, Craig, who's who, who, who, uh, had, you know, she was the owner of the Black Belize, and she had it stolen. So she was a good witness. What happened, He was, uh, passing through Elsa Craig and got drunk, which was unusual for him. He wasn't much of a drinker, but he met this other guy, and they, they got drinking together. And, um, it was at the time of the fall fair in Elsa Craig. So when everybody was at the fair, he broke into this one house. The house still stands, I, I found it, uh, that was an another exciting kind of research. Discovery broke into the house, and he put on, he took off all his clothes, and he put on Mrs. McLeod's clothes, including a hat and veil, and the whole, a little umbrella, <laugh> the whole bit. And then he wanted to save his own clothes. So he found this little brown, a black bag, uh, to put them in. So at the murder scene, the Belize was found with Isabella McLeod's clothes in it. So the big thing was to connect. I mean, somebody else could have stolen the bag in the meantime. So they had to figure out the timeline and put the killer at the murder, the suspect at the murder scene at the time.

    Speaker 2 (00:12:39):

    So where was he found, and how quickly was he brought to justice? Yeah,

    Speaker 3 (00:12:42):

    Well, he, for a few days, he really laid low. He was traveling up to Palmerton and then he headed east. He was heading towards Fergus. He was seen in Fergus. And then he just decided that he was far enough away that he got away. And, um, he wasn't really hiding anymore. And he was passing through Aaron and the baggage handler at the Aaron Railway stations coming and said, That's the guy that's the killer. And the railway manager got on. Nice horse, went into town. The, the railway station was just a little bit out of Aaron went into town to check the newspaper description cuz it was on in all the newspapers. And he came back and said, Yeah, the description matches. Exactly. So then they went out to look for him, and they, uh, found him near, uh, cataract and held him at Cataract Station until the, uh, police could arrive and bring him back.

    Speaker 2 (00:13:49):

    I wanna move on to other parts of your career and your story, but just tell us quickly, um, when he was brought to justice, the conviction and, and the ultimate punishment,

    Speaker 3 (00:13:58):

    They had a trial. Um, before the trial, he wa he gave, uh, several confessions, and then at the trial he withdrew the confessions. John Wilson Murray anticipated this, that's why he, uh, worked so hard in the case. And, um, they just brought forward witness after witness after witness. And, um, he was convicted and then hanged in the, um, jail courtyard. It was not a public hanging

    Speaker 2 (00:14:27):

    In

    Speaker 3 (00:14:27):

    Stratford Yes, in Stratford. So next to the courthouse. And, uh, William Keith attended and he told reporters afterwards, I, I, I'm not here for vengeance, but, um, it is better that this man not be here. And, uh, that was the first hanging in Perth County, the first of three. There were two others be, uh, uh, before, uh, execution was, uh, a capital punishment was made illegal in Canada.

    Speaker 2 (00:14:56):

    Now, you didn't set out to write a book about the Jesse Keith Murder. Murder, Uh, you had something else in mind. So tell us that, uh, how that evolved.

    Speaker 3 (00:15:06):

    Yeah, that's true. I, I was a reporter for the Toronto Star. And, um, sometimes for feature stories, when the news was slow, I would look for, I was interested in historical things. Uh, I would look for museum type stories or historicals type stories. And when I left the Star, this is like eight or nine years ago now, I decided to write a book about Toronto's museums, Toronto's small, um, historic home museums. And that was very satisfying just to get to know your own city in, uh, from the 18 hundreds. So I went next door to Hamilton and I did a book about Hamilton's museums called Inside Hamilton's Museums. And, uh, they've got some beautiful museums. I mean, that Waterworks Museum, the original, uh, Pumphouse Station. It's built like an Italian temple. And then I was going to go to Niagara because Niagara has some wonderful places too.

    Speaker 3 (00:16:11):

    And, uh, except in the meantime, I came up to Stratford and attended the, uh, Swan Parade <laugh>. And I love the Swan Parade. I saw it on YouTube. And afterwards they put the city put on a free historic tour with Horse and Wagon, and Nancy Musman was the guide. And she gave this wonderful tour of all the historic building. And I realized how Heritage Proud Stratford is and, and, and what wonderful buildings you have here. So I thought I should do a book on not museums, but, uh, Stratford's Historic Building. You mean that, that, uh, courthouse, the jail, the city hall,

    Speaker 2 (00:16:56):

    The library,

    Speaker 3 (00:16:57):

    Yes, the library, Carnegie Library. Yes. And, uh, but, but some also wonderful homes. And, um, one of the early archivists did a great job in documenting who lived there. I, I thought I could, uh, Doug

    Speaker 2 (00:17:11):

    James Anderson.

    Speaker 3 (00:17:11):

    Yes. That's him. Yeah. Yeah. And, uh, I thought I could dig it a little deeper and, and tell those stories. Yeah. Um, but then I got kind of sidetracked. I started on the courthouse and, uh, came across the murder. I started to write a chapter on it, but then I kept going. I kept finding more material.

    Speaker 2 (00:17:31):

    Well, I just wanna stop there cuz James Anderson was a big influence on me because I, uh, was always interested in making documentaries. And I made a documentary in high school on the hundredth anniversary of our high school. And I spent hours under the staircase in the old archives, in the courthouse, uh, where he had all these dusty old boxes and records of, uh, of, of records from the old Stratford Collegiate. And then back, I can't remember what, what year this was. He staged a protest for something and he sat on the roof of the courthouse. I heard about that, the hunger strike. I can't remember what he was protesting, but, uh, he sat on the roof of the courthouse, like that steep pitched roof and wouldn't come down until

    Speaker 3 (00:18:14):

    Somebody for days. Yeah.

    Speaker 2 (00:18:15):

    And I can't remember what the issue was, but it was something to do with preserving heritage or tearing a building down or something. I can't remember what it, what it was.

    Speaker 3 (00:18:22):

    I forget the issue too. Yeah, yeah. That was really something. Yeah. Yeah. I wish I'd seen those, that old archives building, uh, before they moved it out. But, um,

    Speaker 2 (00:18:31):

    No, this was in the basement of the courthouse before they went to the archives building next door. This is like really in the deep dark recesses of the, uh, of the courthouse building itself. I think it was right next to the jail or the prisoners cell in the, in the courthouse. But, uh, yeah, it was the holding cell. But yeah, that was, uh, an interesting story. But you mentioned the heritage of, of Stratford. Um, I, I grew up in Stratford, of course, and, um, uh, it was the saving of the city hall. They were gonna tear the beautiful, uh, wedding cake, Victorian design of the, of the Stratford City Hall, which is a landmark, and put up a, uh, a gray cement round tower hotel. Not unlike the one that's on the waterfront in Sioux Saint Marie with a revolving restaurant on the top. It was gonna be putting Stratford into the modern era. And that kind of rallied the community, and they saved the city hall. And I believe it had some influence over the launch of the Heritage movement in Ontario. And we now have this beautiful heritage downtown that you recognized on that horse and buggy tour. So it all sort of goes back to that, uh, that period in the mid 1970s.

    Speaker 3 (00:19:45):

    And speaking of heritage preservation, um, one of the inspiring things about this story about Jesse Keith is that after everything was wrapped up and justice was, uh, served the people of Perth County, of Listal and, and Perth County, and Stratford and southwestern Ontario in 1895, people didn't have a lot of money, but they pooled their money and a, and bought a chunk of marble from Carrera, the best marble quarry in the world. Michael Angelo got David from, from, from the same quarry, and they hired an Italian sculptor to carve a statue of flora, the goddess of flowers and springtime and youth. And he scaled it to the size of a a 13 year old girl. This is a beautiful, beautiful statue. And they put it at her grave. Um, and it was kind of to pay tribute to Jesse and to honor the family and to, so, so kind of solve their own, um, wounds, really.

    Speaker 2 (00:20:59):

    Is that still visible today? Well,

    Speaker 3 (00:21:00):

    This is the point that, that it is, it's out there. I remember they moved David indoors and to that big, uh, gallery, but poor Flora is still out there, uh, exposed to the elements and the statues deteriorating

    Speaker 2 (00:21:15):

    In the cemetery and list tool.

    Speaker 3 (00:21:17):

    Yes. Uhhuh. Yeah. Um, her, her hands kind of, um, gone kind of like melted wax almost. And, uh, her, you know, this, it had this beautiful serene, uh, angelic expression on her face that again, is, is kind of deteriorating too. And I'd like to do something for the preservation and, and, and get it recognized. Maybe, uh, Ontario historic site, something like that. Um,

    Speaker 2 (00:21:47):

    Perhaps the statue could go into the museum or something like that.

    Speaker 3 (00:21:53):

    Yeah, I haven't really thought that far ahead. Um, I think, um, the first step is to have it recognized as something very important to Perth County 19th century history.

    Speaker 2 (00:22:06):

    And the anniversary is October 19th, is that right?

    Speaker 3 (00:22:09):

    October 19th. Yeah.

    Speaker 2 (00:22:11):

    Interesting. Well, when we're recording this, it's in September, so maybe by the time, uh, uh, this goes out, it'll be close to the anniversary and we can, uh, raise the awareness of that. But, uh, we were talking about what you were gonna do a book about the historic heritage of Stratford, and we kind of got sidetracked there. But, um, what was the turning point for you that said, Whoa, this is a better story than this book? How did you change gears?

    Speaker 3 (00:22:34):

    Well, there's lots of good stories in Stratford history. Uh, Nancy Musman, uh, when, when we started that tour, the first thing she said was, Thomas Edison lived right here, Thomas Edison. Are you kidding? And, uh, you know, he was this Teenage Telegraph officer, uh, uh, operator. So that was the start. And then the courthouse was next. And, um, so I thought, well, I've got an interest, the, uh, a publisher in this, so I'll write three chapters. So I, I started with the Edison chapter. I wrote that, uh, some of the early history of Thomas Edison's, a little sketchy, but I did my best. And then I thought, I'm gonna do a story about the rebels, uh, John Till, and, uh, Richard Manuel and Ken Kalki and, uh, that, that early rock band. Um, just a great story. And you know, there's a plaque to them in Queens Park, I think. So, uh, I wrote that I spent a lot of time with John Till very,

    Speaker 2 (00:23:39):

    Who sadly passed away quite

    Speaker 3 (00:23:41):

    Recently. Very sorry to hear that. Um, and then my next, uh, I thought my next sample chapter will be The Courthouse and the Jesse Keith, the trial. Um,

    Speaker 2 (00:23:52):

    So you'd uncovered the story in your research, obviously?

    Speaker 3 (00:23:55):

    No, it was just, it was supposed to be a, a chapter. I mean, Nancy Musman told me about, uh, the,

    Speaker 2 (00:24:01):

    The first hanging,

    Speaker 3 (00:24:03):

    Well, she, she said, I asked her this, this courthouse 1888, I mean, were there any famous trials held here? And she said, Yeah, the trial of Jesse Keith. It was big. And, uh, so I kind of looked into it. Wikipedia had everything wrong, but I went a little bit deeper and it was just, you know, a newspaper articles and things like that and pieced it together. But I thought, This is interesting. Maybe there's more to it. Maybe I can find something more about it. And

    Speaker 2 (00:24:36):

    There you

    Speaker 3 (00:24:37):

    Go. Yeah, eventually I was able to put together, uh, well, kind of most of a book, uh, the other half of, not other, I mean, it was more than half a book, but I still still didn't have a full book on the, on the, uh, on that case. And so what I did, I retraced the Killer's route from Elsa Craig right up to Cataract, and wrote about different stories that related to that time, and also different murders as well. So, um, the Mil, the Milton audience last night, they said that was the best part of the book, <laugh>, because it, it, it had stories from their, you know, a little closer to their area as well.

    Speaker 2 (00:25:19):

    Well, this, this book, uh, caps off, uh, a very long career you've had in the journalism world. Can you, uh, how did you get interested in writing and telling stories like this? Where did, where did that start?

    Speaker 3 (00:25:33):

    Yeah. This is when journalists were journalists and newspapers were newspapers. Uh,

    Speaker 2 (00:25:38):

    You got ink on your finger when you read them, Right? Yeah. And led as they went into the,

    Speaker 3 (00:25:42):

    Oh, I remember that. Sure. That's right. Yeah. Um, well, I took a, I took my, uh, journalism journalism degree at Carlton. I had that choice that you had was at Carlton, was it Western? Was it Ryerson? You went to Ryerson? I went to, uh, Carlton. And then, um, I had part-time jobs with Canadian Press, and I eventually went to war work for Canadian Press in Montreal. I all my, you know, from my teenage years, um, right through to studying journalism, I had an interest in photography. My, my father taught me how to develop film and to print to pictures. And so when I was at Carleton, I did pictures for the newspaper, the campus newspaper, sorry. By the time I, I went to Montreal, I, um, there were no journalism jobs. I couldn't find a reporting job, but they had a photo job. Uh, Chris Haney, who has a Stratford connection, his, his mother, Sheila, was at the Stratford Festival for years. His sister Mary, um, started at the Stratford Festival and then became better known at the Shaw Festival. He was the photo editor, Montreal. And he left to go. And, uh, he had this idea he would write, uh, trivia questions in Malaga in Spain. Anyway, the job was open, so I took it. And, um, I did that. I was editing photos, and, uh, then I started taking pictures. We had a full-time photographer, but sometimes he was busy. So I was, I was doing photos and, uh, covering, um, hockey games, baseball games, football games.

    Speaker 2 (00:27:30):

    And I'll just mention that Chris Haney, that trivia thing he was doing in Spain ended up being Trivial Pursuit, which made him a millionaire.

    Speaker 3 (00:27:38):

    Exactly. So, um, and, uh, his partner in that, Scott Abbott, was the sports writer at Canadian Press, Montreal, when I was there. So I knew them both. It was fun.

    Speaker 2 (00:27:50):

    Um, did they offer you a, a chance to invest in

    Speaker 3 (00:27:54):

    The Well, I'll tell you, I'll get to that. I mean, he was just leaving from MAGA at the time. In fact, we all, a bunch of us got on the train together and went to New York and saw him off in the Queen Mary. He, he was afraid of flying, so, So he took a boat. Yeah, he took a boat, uh, across to Spain. I knew I didn't wanna stay in photos forever. I I wanted to be a reporter, so I asked for a change. And, um, so they may be a reporter at CP Montreal. I was a junior reporter. I didn't have much experience, but in the meantime, the, um, the Iranian, uh, student militants in Tyran had taken over the US Embassy and taken all the diplomats hostages. It was a, a huge story. And at one point, Jimmy Carter tried to operate a launch, a rescue mission, and the helicopters crashed in the desert.

    Speaker 3 (00:28:51):

    And it was big fiasco. The Iranians were very mad at the Americans. They, they, they, um, sent all the reporters home, all the American reporters home, and all the big news agencies, the American news agencies, they wanted to have some representation in Tarran. So they, they, they arranged for these surrogates. So ABC had had a Greek camera crew, <laugh>, and, um, Reuters was allowed to stay. They were British Financial Times was, was there, the Guardian was still there, but Associated Press, uh, had, uh, had nobody in their bureau. So they asked a Canadian press, Could you send a couple reporters? And what, what we'll do will just, um, when they send the stories to Toronto, we'll have an automatic feed to New York. And so, uh, the Ottawa Bureau agreed to that. And then after a year or so, they got tired of, of missing their top reporters.

    Speaker 3 (00:29:51):

    And at the end of, uh, 1980, uh, Ronald Reagan had lost the election, uh, had won the election, uh, against Jimmy Carter. He was to be, uh, sworn in in January. And everybody thought, Okay, it looks like the Iranians are gonna wait, uh, wait until January, and then they'll negotiate with Ronald Reagan. So they needed a stop gaps. Canadian press needed a stop gap. I had put in my name. So they sent me, I had put my, put my name in as a photographer cuz I thought I could handle that. Uh, but they sent me as a reporter, and, uh, they were gonna send a photographer with me. The day I arrived, January 4th, 1981, uh, Iran just shut the door and the photographer never arrived. So I was there by myself. I had the help of a very good local, uh, he was a, a lawyer in training when the university shut down, uh, the beginning of the revolution. But he had worked with, um, abc I think, for a while, and then, or maybe nbc, and then, uh, switched over to the Associated Press. And so I inherited this guy.

    Speaker 2 (00:31:08):

    He was a photographer or a fixer?

    Speaker 3 (00:31:09):

    No, he, yeah, Fixer is what you call it. Uh, he was a translator. I call him a colleague. Really. He was a translator and had a, he had developed a very good news sense. So without him, I mean, I don't know what

    Speaker 2 (00:31:21):

    I was, but you arrived, there were other reporters there, so you had the support of, uh, the codery of other journalists who were there covering it. So when, how did it unfold as you arrived? I forget the exact dates. So you arrived in January, 1981. Remind me what the timeline was after that.

    Speaker 3 (00:31:39):

    So the actual release took place January 20th, uh, during, uh, Ronald Reagan's inaugural, uh, inaugural address.

    Speaker 2 (00:31:47):

    So you were there only for like a week or a few days

    Speaker 3 (00:31:49):

    Before? I stayed another month afterwards.

    Speaker 2 (00:31:51):

    No, But when you arrived, you'd only been there for a few days, right? You arrive, what date did you

    Speaker 3 (00:31:56):

    Arrive? January 4th.

    Speaker 2 (00:31:57):

    Right. So you're there for, for like a week or two?

    Speaker 3 (00:31:59):

    Yeah. Uh, less than three weeks,

    Speaker 2 (00:32:01):

    Almost. Not enough time. How did you sort of get your feet wet when you, when you arrived?

    Speaker 3 (00:32:07):

    It was amazing. Um, I replaced a guy named Doug Long, and he was showing me around. He, he, he took me to the teletype room at the, at the, uh, Intercontinental Hotel where we were staying. And, uh, we go into the room and he says, um, you know, these, remember these teletype machines? I mean, they were very kind of hard to operate. It's not like a typewriter. You'd have to press the key, and it was this long stroke down. And to get any kind of speed, you'd have to develop a rhythm to it. He'd say, What, what you do is, uh, you, you'd go up to your room, you'd write your story on your portable typewriter, come down, uh, type this into the teletype machine. You get a, it punches a, a ribbon. And then you take that and you feed it into, uh, a live feed to New York. And he said, But probably you won't wanna do it that way. I said, What you, what are you talking about? He said, Well, things get so hairy that, uh, you'll wanna come straight into the teletype room

    Speaker 2 (00:33:12):

    And write it right on the tele

    Speaker 3 (00:33:13):

    And write it live on the teletype machine to New York. And I, I said, No, no, no. I, I could never do that within three days. I'm telling you, I mean, the adrenaline is going so hard that, uh, I would come back from some announcement, uh, in, in the, uh, taxi and, uh, have the translator tell me what was said. I'd be writing notes. I'd compose a lead, go straight into the teletype room, open up the live line, and just start composing the story like that. Um, and it was a real lesson that, uh, not to underestimate yourself, that, uh, these things are possible under, um,

    Speaker 2 (00:33:54):

    Duress. Yeah.

    Speaker 3 (00:33:54):

    Under <laugh>.

    Speaker 2 (00:33:56):

    But you also had an editor at the other end who could polish it a little bit and, and do that. So you were feeding them the, uh, your pros, but it could be shaped in a way, if there were errors or typos and things

    Speaker 3 (00:34:07):

    Like that. Oh, there was certainly typos and no question. Yeah.

    Speaker 2 (00:34:10):

    So Canadians played a big role for those who don't remember, you know, the, the Americans who were held hostage were disguised as Canadians, and Ken Taylor was the, was responsible for, you know, I guess saving their lives. So where were you when all of this was happening? Were you out there in the street in front of, uh, the, where the protests were or where were you?

    Speaker 3 (00:34:33):

    Yeah, often. Uh, I went to the embassy, Remember this was a 444 day ordeal event. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> now, it was a, it really was the top story in the world for all of those 444 days, almost. I mean, there's some lags, but certainly when, uh, by January 81, uh, nobody knew if, if there were gonna be released, uh, when Carter was still president, or if they wait. There was a lot of suspense.

    Speaker 2 (00:35:02):

    Well, I was in journalism school at <inaudible> at the time, and that's when they launched ABC News Nightline with Ted Coppel. And I remember every time he opened the show, it was, this is the 347th Day of captivity for the hostages in Iran. This is Nightline. And it was set up as an update. It wasn't really a new show. It was an update report only about that story.

    Speaker 3 (00:35:25):

    I remember that. Yeah. Every single night he did it. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

    Speaker 2 (00:35:28):

    Incredible.

    Speaker 3 (00:35:30):

    So, the Ken Taylor event, uh, was about a year before I arrived. So I wasn't there for any of that. Uh, it had already happened. They, it had kind of come and gone. I did go by the old building, uh, just to see. But, uh, that was my own curiosity. Um, so by the time I was there, it was really, you know, the suspense over the negotiations and the Algerians were involved as go betweens, and they had to settle. Uh, would the Americans unfreeze, uh, Iranian assets and all this stuff there, a lot of negotiations. And there were banks in London involved. That's

    Speaker 2 (00:36:10):

    Right. These were the remaining hostages, not the ones that Ken Taylor smuggled out. Right. There was a group that he saved, but there was the remaining, I forget the numbers that were left in.

    Speaker 3 (00:36:19):

    Well, I think there were 52 left. Yeah. So quite a few, Yeah. In captivity, terrible ordeal. 444 days. Can you imagine? Not knowing your fate. And every once in a while, somebody would get up and parliament and say, Well, I think, uh, we should put them on trial <laugh>. And you know, what that meant in Iran. And others would say that we, the hostages are like fruit, and the juice has been squeezed from them. We should let them go now. You know, we got as much as we can out of the whole thing. So nobody knew what, where it was going. And I remember one night, very close to the end, Jimmy Carter said, Look, if you can't do this by January 16th, it's not gonna happen. You're gonna have to wait, wait for Ronald Reagan, uh, be because I'm out of office. And there were meetings in the Parliament, the Magus, and, uh, they, they couldn't get a quorum.

    Speaker 3 (00:37:16):

    Nobody showed up and then went on to the next day, and they had to make two past two big bills. And at one point, I didn't really know where this was going. I mean, were they gonna be released or not? And I remember one morning every morning, I, I, I, I'd listened to the radio, the, the American Broadcast World Service, or the BBC World Service, I'd pick one or the other, like at seven 30 when I got up. And that particular morning, I thought, No, no, I've gotta hear both these broadcasts. So I have some idea of what's going on in London, or I'll Lgi or Washington, so I know what the days events are gonna be like. So six 30, I turn on the radio for the BBC broadcast. I picked that one. And the head, they, first, they read the headlines, and the headline was Iran.

    Speaker 3 (00:38:11):

    And then they go through the other headlines and then the, the top story. And they start this, uh, they start reading the story, and it's my story, <laugh>, they're reading me word for word, and I'm listening to the radio to hear what's going on. It was a very eerie, uh, kind of thing. So I, I kind of came away from that assignment with two lessons, vague lessons. One is that I can do more than I thought I could. And the other was <laugh>, that, you know, that, that, I don't know really what the second lesson was. Kind of, uh, a lesson of limitations of, uh, or I don't know, thing is I wasn't really expected to know the future. So, uh, uh, it, it's not like, it's not like my story was wrong,

    Speaker 2 (00:39:07):

    But the story that they were reading was about the release of the, What was the story that you, you broke?

    Speaker 3 (00:39:12):

    Yeah. This was a few days before when, um, I was giving the latest update as to what was happening with the, the Parliament and the decisions to pass the bills and to, uh, agree to the release of the hostages.

    Speaker 1 (00:39:25):

    You're listening to the Stratford slice with Craig Thompson. Check out our website, the stratford slice.com, and be sure to subscribe. And now back to the show.

    Speaker 2 (00:39:38):

    So give me the drama of the final moments in Iran before you came back to Canada, because the hostages were eventually released. Just remind us the unfolding of events at that time and how you reported it.

    Speaker 3 (00:39:50):

    Well, um, it looked like that they would not be released and that Ronald Reagan would be inaugurated, and they'd wait till, um, to negotiate with the Reagan administration, and there'd be another big lag. But Ronald Reagan started giving his inaugural address, and suddenly there was activity at the airport. And when, uh, when he was still speaking, the plane took off for Germany. And so I had somebody at the airport to relay this information. I went on live to AP Radio, They cut into all the radio stations across the US and just cut in my feed to interrupt Ronald Reagan's inaugural address. It was crazy.

    Speaker 2 (00:40:42):

    So this just in the hostages are on their way to Germany. That was your report.

    Speaker 3 (00:40:47):

    Yes. The plane has taken off and, Yes, exactly. Yeah.

    Speaker 2 (00:40:50):

    So that must have really been a boost to your career. So what, how did that influence your next assignments? What did you do, uh, after you returned to Canada?

    Speaker 3 (00:41:00):

    Well, they wanted me to, you know, I was working in Montreal, but they wanted me to come to Toronto for a debriefing. And I did that. And they said, We've got a bonus for you, uh, $10,000 for all the overtime. And I did ever had a day off in those two months. So I went to the bank, deposited this $10,000. I was coming back to the office, and on the street I see Chris Heney <laugh>, the man whose, uh, job I had. I I had taken, um, in Montreal in the first place. And he had been, he was back from Malaga. He'd written his Trivial Pursuit questions. He said, Let's go, let's go get a drink in the, in the bar next door. So we went in, we're sitting at the bar in on the bar stools. And, um, he starts telling me about this game, and I'm not really a trivia person.

    Speaker 3 (00:41:46):

    Uh, and he says, he is trying to get me interested. And he says, uh, who was, uh, Time Magazine's first, um, Woman of the Year in 1952? I said, Uh, Queen Elizabeth. He said, Right. I said, No, no, I, I, I just guessed. That was just a guess. Yeah. But you knew the coronation was in 52, and it was a good guess. And that's, that's, that's the fun of the game. I said, I don't know. And then he says, uh, how many days were the, uh, hostages, um, uh, you know, kept in Iran? I said, 444. He said, Yes. I mean, but I was just there. Of course, I know that <laugh>. And, um, but he's very persuasive guy. And then he, he, he, he brought out this piece of paper, and it was a certificate. He was trying to, he was broke. He was trying to raise money to, uh, have a board board, have the board designed for the game.

    Speaker 3 (00:42:48):

    And he had no money at all, and he was selling 10, 10 shares of a thousand dollars each. And he says, John, this is the last one. People are interested. We've had the, the test groups. This is gonna go, I can still remember his words. This is gonna go. And he's holding up the, uh, their certificate, and it was a thousand dollars. Well, I, I had, I had $10,000. He knew about your bonus, obviously. Well, no, he didn't know anything about that, but I did. And, uh, it would would've been the easiest thing to give him a thousand dollars, and I wouldn't even have missed it. But, you know, there, there were two things, um, crossed my mind. I, I can't fully explain this. I don't know if it was like some sort of Protestant worth work ethic thing that my father had taught me, But I, I felt, well, I, I really believed, I really believed him that it was gonna go and it was gonna sell, and that I would make some big profit from this investment.

    Speaker 3 (00:43:49):

    I, I, I'm, I'm embarrassed to say it, but I thought, I don't really deserve to profit from his hard work. That doesn't make any sense to me now. I mean, he needed the money and, uh, it would've benefited him. And, uh, he was happy to have me profit from it. Um, but the other thing was that, um, as satisfying as that as Iranian assignment was, I still felt some kind of sense of, um, not being worthy, if I can put it that way. I don't wanna get too psychological about this, but, um, but when I look back on that now, making millions of dollars from this investment, which people did, would've, uh, and I was 30 years old, would have, uh, I think done me a, a big disservice. I would've, I don't think I would've gotten into Dr. I'm, I don't have an addictive personality. I wouldn't have gotten into drugs or alcohol or anything like that. Uh, but I could have made, uh, lots of bad decisions for myself in terms of, uh, my romantic life or something like that, or just, um, become arrogant and, um, I don't know. I don't like to think about it.

    Speaker 2 (00:45:11):

    So that thousand dollars would've turned into, what had you invested, do you think?

    Speaker 3 (00:45:15):

    Millions. Because, um, what happened, I had a good friend, uh, Eric Havi, who invested, well, I knew several people who did. And, uh, you know, you never really asked people <laugh> exactly how much, but millions of dollars. Yes. Wow. Um, over the years, because then there were spinoff games, right? There was a sports version, There was a, um, you know, several other versions. So over the year, it diminished each, uh, each year, but still, it was a lot of money. Wow. Uh, one of my friends bought a yacht <laugh>. Um, so I did, you asked me, you know, what did I do after that? I mean, the Tyran assignment, I could have turned that into, I, I could have gone to AP or, or, or, or Reuters and said, Hey, you know, do you have a, a job for me? Uh, look what I did. And, but I didn't do that. I, um, a job came open with Canadian Press. They wanted to open a Northern Bureau, uh, and cover the far north for the first time. And I said, Yeah, I'd like to do that. So I put my name in, and they, I, I spent the next two years in Yellow Knife traveling all over the north. So SME Island, I got to, got to Ward, Ward, Hunt Island, the farthest north you can go in Canada.

    Speaker 2 (00:46:35):

    And this would've been in the 1980s, right?

    Speaker 3 (00:46:36):

    This was, Yes, that's right. So,

    Speaker 2 (00:46:38):

    So a time when the North was really opening up. So you were there at the, at the, at a very, uh, opportune time to find stories that had never been told before,

    Speaker 3 (00:46:48):

    82 to 84. So I was with the De Nation National Assemblies and, uh, Caribou Hunting with the Innu Wheat and on Baffin Island. And, uh, just amazing experience. And it really opened up my idea of what Canada is and that geography. It's so different from anything you see here. It was a, a really wonderful, uh, time. And then after that, I went to, I went into magazines.

    Speaker 2 (00:47:15):

    Uh, when did the Toronto Star, uh, part of your career

    Speaker 3 (00:47:19):

    Start? Oh, that was quite late. Uh, so after 15 years in magazines, I went to Southern News and I was the National Entertainment Reporter in Toronto. Um, that lasted about two years, then they shut that bureau, and then I went to the Toronto Star. So, So

    Speaker 2 (00:47:36):

    You finished your career at the Toronto Star? Yeah. In what capacity were you a columnist or writer, or features? What

    Speaker 3 (00:47:41):

    Were you thinking? Oh, I did everything there. I started, uh, I, it was kind like, uh, this CP Montreal experience. I went to ask for a reporting job. They didn't have one. So I became a copy editor, and then was writing stories on the side. And they, they eventually recognized that, uh, they had a funny attitude, Well, no, maybe not funny. It worked for them, their production. Um, they said, Look, we need production people. Reporters are a dime a dozen. They said, <laugh>.

    Speaker 2 (00:48:10):

    Right. So you, in the north, you gained a lot of insight into stories of the North, and that led to an article you wrote for Saturday Night Magazine on an author by the name of Farley Moat, a very well known Canadian author whose stories of the north kind of propelled his career. I don't know, I don't remember much about that, that story, but I do know Farley Moit. So did the experience in the north lead you to an understanding and gave you the, the, the fuel, I suppose, for what you ultimately wrote in Saturday Night Magazine?

    Speaker 3 (00:48:45):

    That's exactly what happened.

    Speaker 2 (00:48:46):

    So tell us

    Speaker 3 (00:48:47):

    What you discovered. Yeah, I went around the north, and, uh, every once in a while, Farley Moat's name would come up, except they didn't say Farley Moat. They called him. Hardly know it. I thought, What? I mean, this is a big hero, a big Canadian hero wrote all about the North. And would you mean hardly know it? Oh, well, uh, he did a lot of damage. He just made up stuff. Uh, he, he's, he's a fraud. He's a fake. He's a, he's a liar. He, you, he heard a lot of people. I thought, Paul, gee, you know, this, uh, doesn't make sense. So it took me a few years. But, um, when I was writing for magazines for Saturday night, I went to the archives in Ottawa and started to look, uh, at, at look for what I could find on Farley Moat. And that led me to the, uh, McMaster University archives, where he kept all his papers, and I found his diaries, his Arctic diary.

    Speaker 2 (00:49:42):

    This is while he was still alive. Yes. Yeah.

    Speaker 3 (00:49:45):

    And it was extraordinary. I realized that, that, um, he was a compulsive liar. That he lied when he, when he didn't have to, when he could have told the, the, the, the truth was a better story. And, uh, but he was, um, uh, very neurotic kind of guy. And I, so, but I was able to compare his diary of what was happening and, and then compared to the passages in his books, and they were opposite.

    Speaker 2 (00:50:16):

    So how did you convince the editors of Saturday Night an established literary, uh, magazine to allow you to write a story about this icon?

    Speaker 3 (00:50:28):

    Well, at first, uh, they weren't much interested. They thought Farley Mo, I mean, you know, who, who reads Farley mode anymore? It, it was kind of like that. Um, um, but then when I showed them the material, as you say, he wa what, he still has stature. Even though, you know how people, how writer's careers, they, they're, they're very well known. And then they get lesser known, and then they get well known again, it kind of goes up and down. It was at kind of a low point. Nobody was really talking about Farley mode at the time. So it wasn't, there was no, no, no news hook. Certainly. Uh, and the question we always asked ourselves at Saturday night was, Why now? Why, why are we writing it now? Well, there was a very good reason, um, you could write this anytime that it was a big expose about what this guy was really all about. And, um, now we were worried that there'd be a lawsuit.

    Speaker 3 (00:51:29):

    One of the editors said, Well, he, he's gonna have to sue, but what we're gonna have to do, and we're prepared to do this, put you with a lawyer, liable lawyer, and a fact checker. I remember this meeting we had, all the editors were <laugh>. Yeah. All, all the editors are there, and the fact checkers and the lawyer, and I was going through every single document I had to support every single fact in the story. Oh, man. It, it took hours. And so at the end, we said, Okay, if we go to court, we'll win the case. He might still sue. And, um, boy, it was, uh, I really like Saturday night. They had that kind of integrity. Uh, Kenneth White was the editor at the time, and, uh, it was, it was just a great experience to be part of that professional kind of team.

    Speaker 2 (00:52:20):

    What was the cover, uh, of the magazine? What was the cover headline, and what was the headline of your article? Inside

    Speaker 3 (00:52:28):

    That was a, uh, precedent setting cover. So it was just the beginning of digital digitalization. <laugh>, I can't say it, but what they did was, uh, they elongated his nose like Pinocchio. They, they took several tries to get it right. And, uh, then the headline was on the cover was, Whoops, exclamation mark. Then I forget what the subhead was. Uh, they didn't want to call him a liar outright, but they sure, um, made it look like he was,

    Speaker 2 (00:53:01):

    And the headline inside, Do you remember that?

    Speaker 3 (00:53:05):

    Sorry, I don't, I don't remember it. Uh,

    Speaker 2 (00:53:07):

    So what was the repercussion? So Saturday Night was an established magazine, respected how, what happened after it came on the newsstand?

    Speaker 3 (00:53:17):

    Yeah, it was interesting. I mean, the entire literary establi, not the entire, the, but, but most of the literary establishment in, uh, Toronto, Margaret Atwood, Graham Gibson, uh, Peter Zoske, all these people, uh, they just attacked me. Uh, Royal Canadian Air Force makes, made jokes about me,

    Speaker 2 (00:53:37):

    Not the magazine You personally held, you responsibly, not the magazine. Yeah,

    Speaker 3 (00:53:41):

    Well, Farley Mot, um, he decided to attack, uh, Conrad Black <laugh> because, uh, Conrad Black owned the magazine at that time. So he just picked his target, you know, uh, said, you know, Conrad Black is some right wing figure, and he's, uh, and I'm the underdog. This is like typical Farley Molet and Conrad Black is, has it in for me. And what was interesting is Farley moment didn't, he didn't contradict a single fact in the entire piece. So he didn't sue,

    Speaker 2 (00:54:11):

    He

    Speaker 3 (00:54:11):

    Didn't sue. Uh, he sent me a lawyer's letter saying he was going to, but no, he did not sue.

    Speaker 2 (00:54:17):

    So what repercussion did that have for you and your career?

    Speaker 3 (00:54:21):

    Well, I don't really know. I think a lot of, uh, establishment people, uh, and by that I mean in the mainstream newspapers, um, the, the Toronto Star included, I know at the Gazette, everybody very skeptical of, uh, of this story. How could I do this to this, uh, you know, if, if I had done this in the United States, that would've bring the, have I brought the reporter had brought the author down, and the publishers would've disowned the, the, the person for, uh, this kind of fraud. But in Canada, I don't know, people just kind of defended him, except that they were, uh, one of the paperback publishers, uh, what was Cignet additions, or I, I forget exactly what it was. They were ready to have a 50th anniversary splash of Par, uh, Farley Molet. And they canceled it. They had done a lot of preparation, a lot of the publicity, and they were ready to go, and they cancel it. So, uh, now that never became public, but I, I heard about that. And, um, I don't know. I was a bit in trouble with Double Day. I'd published a book with Double Day, so I got a lot of pushback. But you, you don't really know how your career might be damaged in, Uh,

    Speaker 2 (00:55:46):

    But no regrets. No regrets.

    Speaker 3 (00:55:48):

    Uh, no, it was a good lesson for me, um, to, I know I did a, a good piece, uh, if I had rewritten it, if I'd written it again, sometimes I think, Well, if I'd done it slightly differently, could I have persuaded more people that? But a lot of people didn't even read it. They just wanted to, uh, say Farley Mo. It's a great, you know, I read the, my mother read me the dog who wouldn't be when I was young, and I will always be a Farley Molet fan kind of thing. And they didn't really wanna know, um, what the facts were.

    Speaker 2 (00:56:21):

    So you've left the Star, uh, for a while, while, and we've circled back to where we started. Uh, you're writing books now. What's, uh, what's next? Do you have a project that, uh, is intriguing you currently

    Speaker 3 (00:56:32):

    I've got two. I started during the pandemic. I started writing a another Murderer story. I was starting to hike the Bruce Trail, you know, all along the Niagara Garment from Niagara to Tobra Moray up Bay Point. Yeah, yeah, all those places. And, um, there was a couple from Grimsby in the early fifties, in their early fifties. And, uh, the, their marriage had kind of soured, and the guy had taken up with a mistress and, and, uh, they were expecting a baby. And, uh, so this couple, he, the, the, the man, uh, took his wife hiking on the Bruce Trail at Mountain Nemo, and pushed her off, pushed her off the escarpment and killed her, and then went to the police and said, Oh, something terrible thing happened. My wife slipped. Um, but there was a, and they believed him, uh, but the, um, there was a policeman who had his suspicions, and he dug into it and wiretapped and, uh, did a big investigation.

    Speaker 3 (00:57:40):

    And he was eventually convicted on first degree murder. This is 2003 first degree murder and, uh, convicted to minimum of 25 years. So I was working on that, But, uh, then I got interrupted and I had to put it aside. So I'm doing a kind of Farley moit style, uh, controversial, uh, subject. And this is not gonna be popular in Stratford. Uh, okay. I accept that. Uh, you asked me, you know, what was the, uh, what lessons that I learned from the Farley moment story. So I take those lessons with me as I approach this new project. In April, a guy came to me and said, I want to tell my story. I'm not a writer. I need an editor or a ghost writer or something, and could you help me? I said, Well, what is it? He said, I was the official spokesman for the Freedom Convoy.

    Speaker 3 (00:58:41):

    I said, Well, gee, you know, I wasn't there. I wasn't really following it that much. And, uh, you know, what, what story is it? So we, we just started meeting and, um, taking it step by step, and I realized, this is kinda like the Farney mot thing. I realized that the establishment response, the Freedom Convoy, that there was another whole story there. There were two Freedom convoys. Uh, there was the, the one that got reported, uh, by the CBC and others, and then there's the one that people witnessed on Wellington Street in front of, of the Parliament buildings. And it is two separate narratives. So, um, I just punished put the finishing touches on that on Sunday. I finished writing it. It was kind of a record for me, uh, in terms of, uh, writing a book in six months. Uh, The Man with the Black Bullies, I think I spent two, two years on. But it's an extraordinary story. And, um, I asked dur, my publisher, Are they interested? I never heard back. I've got a contract with them that, uh, the next book I publish, I have to publish with them.

    Speaker 2 (00:59:55):

    So who's publishing it?

    Speaker 3 (00:59:56):

    So the whole publishing world's kind of like the newspaper world. It's totally changed, it's upside down. And this kind of makes me very uncomfortable. I'm not used to this, It's counterintuitive, but, uh, we're putting the whole thing on Amazon. We've, we've, uh, hired a, uh, book designer, uh, a cover designer.

    Speaker 2 (01:00:16):

    So you're self-publishing,

    Speaker 3 (01:00:17):

    Well, in a way, um, people are going away, getting away from that term, okay? Because, uh, that was always the term for vanity press, and now it's a different type of thing. Do I sound offensive? <laugh>? I

    Speaker 2 (01:00:33):

    Don't know. So what's the title of the book?

    Speaker 3 (01:00:35):

    It's called Honking for Freedom. And it is, uh, and we're still kind of working on the subtitle, the latest we have is, um, the Trucker Convoy that broke the Silence. And really remember for two years, everybody's doing their duty conforming, getting their shots, staying to their, uh, bubbles, uh, shutting down their businesses and all these other things that we're being asked to do. And finally, when, uh, the government said, Well, truckers, if you're not vaccinated, you have to get a test before you reach the border from the United States. Get tested again at the border, get tested a third time, eight days after you get back into Canada. And by the way, the border guard will decide we'll have the discretion of whether, uh, you have to quarantine right away, no matter what the test results. If you test three times negative in a row, you still have to quarantine for 14 days. Two weeks, and the border guard will have the discretion whether you go into quarantine right away, or if you can drop your load off first and then quarantine. And it's like, to me, I mean,

    Speaker 2 (01:01:55):

    So did you approach this as an unbiased journalist or were you, was your mind already made up on this story?

    Speaker 3 (01:02:00):

    Uh, well, neither, uh, my mind was not what made up, but, um, uh, but I, I, I can't really say that I, I would've written it differently if it was just me. I think, um, you know, on the one, on the one hand this, on the one hand that, um, I don't, that's not, so, I, but I was a ghost writer, so I,

    Speaker 2 (01:02:22):

    Is your name gonna be on the book?

    Speaker 3 (01:02:23):

    Yes, it will be. Uh, so Benjamin Jay der will be the, uh, you know, the, the ostensible author, and then they'll be with John Godard on the cover as well. Yeah.

    Speaker 2 (01:02:35):

    Wow. That's gonna make a splash. No doubt.

    Speaker 3 (01:02:39):

    Well, um, there's a lot of interest. Um, Benjamin Dictor is a, there's this whole other, uh, media, uh, thing happening on the internet, uh, as you know. And so he's on all these podcasts internationally, and, uh, he's got a huge audience. And, uh, he, he, there's a real sense that, um, oh, uh, the other thing, um, I, I had the whole manuscript written, and then, uh, the last thing I wanted to write was about Bitcoin, because remember, Bitcoin, the Bitcoiners came in and they were the only ones who got the crowdfunding money to the truckers. Everything else was shut down. Uh, the government was able to control the banks and control the, uh, other crowdfunding sites. Why they cooperated, I don't know. Uh, but the Bitcoiners proved that, uh, this, um, digital currency could, to some extent anyway, go around the official sources, and they got money to the truckers who, uh, who were so much out of funds.

    Speaker 2 (01:03:52):

    Well, we may have a follow up, uh, podcast with you, depending on how this book, uh, lands. I suppose,

    Speaker 3 (01:04:01):

    As long as people don't throw tomatoes, we're, we're very close to, uh, publishing. So, uh, as I say, I, I'm going to put some finishing. I keep, you know, as I've been driving around to Milton and Stratford, I've been thinking of little changes I'd like to make. So I'm gonna go into it, back into it tonight. But, um, I think we'll have it out by the end of October. And, uh, just this morning in my email, I got a nice, uh, back cover blurb from Jordan Peterson. He's endorsed it. Um, <laugh>, I don't know, I don't know what you think of Jordan Peterson. This is another whole thing. Um, so, uh, but he's got this tremendous worldwide audience, and, uh, he was following it very, very closely for, um, certain reasons. I mean, you know, there's a huge divide on the Freedom Convoy and on Jordan Peterson. I understand that. And, um,

    Speaker 2 (01:04:54):

    But why do you think it's an important story for you to write about? Like, why is this something that you have, uh, are passionate about?

    Speaker 3 (01:05:04):

    Well, I think that we will look back on this as a very important cultural moment. If you talk to the people who are actually there, they talk about it like, um, I mean, if they're old enough, they talk about it like Expo 67 and the, you know, national feeling, and that's why they're waving, uh, waving Canadian flags and, uh, singing oana,

    Speaker 2 (01:05:27):

    But they're also waving Confederate flags and us flags, and there's undertones of racism and, and misogyny and things like that. How do you account for that?

    Speaker 3 (01:05:36):

    Ah, I do account for that. I wrote a whole chapter on that. And, uh, this is what I mean by the coverage was so bad. Uh, I take that apart in, in, uh, very close detail of how those were totally bogus stories,

    Speaker 2 (01:05:50):

    But they're still driving around with confederate flags and things like that. You see that they, even in Stratford, people with pickup trucks driving around with, I just saw this morning somebody flying an American flag in the Canadian flag back on the back of their truck.

    Speaker 3 (01:06:04):

    Uh, but are they flying Confederate flags?

    Speaker 2 (01:06:07):

    No, that wasn't the Confederate flag. No.

    Speaker 3 (01:06:08):

    Okay. Uh, have you seen Confederate flags?

    Speaker 2 (01:06:11):

    I, there's one on pool, uh, in, on the way to Mil Millbank or Milverton, there's a somebody who flies it at their house, uh, on the, uh, side road, and there's somebody in Atwood, little small towns flying the Confederate flag. So there are instances of

    Speaker 3 (01:06:26):

    It. Uh, yeah, I saw one recently about a month ago near, um, Port Dover. But this was a guy, I asked about it, and it was a guy who was, um, just a racist, racist sort of guy, has a history of it, and it had nothing to do with the Freedom convoy. So

    Speaker 2 (01:06:42):

    We've got this incredible divide right now, and the vitriol between the two sides. How are we possibly going to come together as a, as a country to make peace with each other when there's so much anger?

    Speaker 3 (01:06:55):

    Well, this is was one of the big lessons from the research I did on the Freedom Convoy, is that there wasn't anger at all. They did not do it out of anger at all. They didn't do it out of vitriol at all. It was an amazing, when you think,

    Speaker 2 (01:07:09):

    But look at how they disrupted downtown Ottawa and ruined life for thousands and thousands of people. It it,

    Speaker 3 (01:07:16):

    That is the mainstream narrative. And it didn't happen. Uh, it just didn't, um, look at it this way, three weeks, tens of thousands of people gathered for three weeks. I mean, it was more on the weekends and less during the week, Uh, but still a huge crowd, three weeks, and they're all angry, but nothing happened. They were

    Speaker 2 (01:07:40):

    Yelling, but they were yelling insults at journalists on camera. And I saw some of that with my own eyes.

    Speaker 3 (01:07:45):

    Not a single, uh, window broken. Nobody hurt until the cops came.

    Speaker 2 (01:07:50):

    But do you deny that reporters weren't harassed?

    Speaker 3 (01:07:53):

    Yeah, I saw some of that. Um, so I mean, the explanation there was that they were turning on their televisions at night and seeing these reports, and they were just totally, totally distorting what was happening on the street. You're looking at me skeptically. I understand that. I, I mean, I've had a lot of that. I've had friends in Toronto unfriend me on Facebook, people I've known for 30 years. Um, so yeah, I mean, but I was getting that at the Farley Mot story too, So I don't know, it just kind of comes with the territory. But this is, uh, this is an important event. What happened? Well,

    Speaker 2 (01:08:31):

    As a journalist and a, a former journalist myself, I, I believe in telling both sides of the story. So I thank you for sharing that with me. I look forward to reading the book and seeing what the repercussions are or the reaction is. And I, I do believe that everybody has the right to have their voice heard, and one doesn't always have to agree with, with both sides. But I think it'll be interesting to see how your, your book is received. Maybe you're gonna be a lot more famous than you are now,

    Speaker 3 (01:09:01):

    Or Benjamin Victor is, uh, I don't know. I I'm gonna take the low profile.

    Speaker 2 (01:09:05):

    Your name is still on the cover, though. It

    Speaker 3 (01:09:07):

    Is. That's true. Yeah.

    Speaker 2 (01:09:08):

    All right. Well, listen, thanks for stopping by our, our studio in downtown Heritage, downtown Stratford. John, I really appreciate the time and it's been a great, uh, great to meet you.

    Speaker 3 (01:09:19):

    Thank you for listening to me, Craig. Thank you.

    Speaker 1 (01:09:22):

    You've been listening to the Stratford Slice with Craig Thompson. For more episodes, check out our website, the stratford slice.com, and be sure to subscribe. The Stratford slice is produced by Ballon Ran Entertainment, Southwestern Ontario's number one digital media studio. If you have a great story to tell and want to be on the podcast, please reach out to us through our website, the stratford slice.com.

  • Speaker 1 (00:00:00):

    The following is a podcast from Be and Ran Entertainment.

    Speaker 2 (00:00:05):

    Hello, it's Craig Thompson, and this is the Stratford Slice. Today on the podcast, a little town with a big symphony, few North American cities of Stratford size can boast a symphony orchestra as accomplished as the Stratford Symphony Orchestra. Now going into its 18th season, the Stratford Symphony offers half a dozen concerts each year throughout the year at the beautiful a Avondale United Church. The symphony, uh, is under the direction of Bill Rosen, who is the principal, conductor and music director, and he joins me today all the way from Vancouver bc. Welcome, Bill.

    Speaker 3 (00:01:07):

    Hi, Craig. Thanks for having me.

    Speaker 2 (00:01:08):

    Welcome to the Stratford Slice.

    Speaker 3 (00:01:11):

    Thanks. Good to be here.

    Speaker 2 (00:01:14):

    Tell me what the conductor of the Stratford Symphony is doing in Vancouver, because obviously you have many different roles and responsibilities in this, uh, in this industry. And Stratford is one of your, uh, treasured assignments. I, I presume.

    Speaker 3 (00:01:32):

    Yes, indeed it is. Um, well, I, I lived in Ontario for many, many years and started in Stratford, and then, uh, I was offered a job with the Vancouver Symphony, um, as their associate conductor, first assistant conductor, and then their associate conductor. And the workload there was just very intense, like weekly duties and performances. And so my family and I temporarily relocated out here to Vancouver. And, um, so I, and I still work with the, with the vso, although, uh, my, my contract with them has ended on a, uh, contracted by the year type of thing. Uh, and so now I have a lot more flexibility to fly around. But in the meantime, my wife got a wonderful job and, and my kids are in school, so we, and then c came, uh, as we'd always intended of on coming back to Ontario. It's where we feel at home, uh, but that's still in the works. So we're, I'm talking to you today from Vancouver instead of, uh, Southern Ontario.

    Speaker 2 (00:02:34):

    Now, tell me, Stratford is a small town, like I said, off the top, but we have a professional orchestra. How rare is that for a community the size of Stratford, and why?

    Speaker 3 (00:02:46):

    Uh, it's very rare, uh, for my experience, uh, especially have an orchestra as capable as Stratford's, uh, and as big, um, I stratford's a special town. I mean, it's a, in, in, uh, the arts and culture world especially. I think that it's, uh, it's used to cultural tourism thanks to the festival there and, and has been for many, many years. Um, a lot of really fabulous, uh, people that have worked in the arts profession retired to Stratford, and I think it benefits, uh, a lot from all the universities and music training programs in the area. And, um, it, it, it just took some people to put those pieces together, um, and, and the audiences came and have been very, very supportive. So it's, uh, it's, it's a special thing. I I value it very much.

    Speaker 2 (00:03:35):

    And for those who haven't, uh, attended a symphony concert at a Avondale church, most of those concerts are, uh, full packed, sold out. So it's obviously a very popular, uh, is that because of the caliber of the orchestra or the fact that there's not a lot of choice for Symphony in the, in their region? How would you, uh, break that down?

    Speaker 3 (00:03:59):

    I, I would, uh, say on your first two points that, that, that, uh, it really helps us a lot. I always say that a good performing arts organization, particularly a good symphony orchestra, has to have three very strong anchors I in order to really succeed and grow. And, and those are, you have to have access to, uh, highly trained, capable artists. Like you have to get the best musicians that you can. Uh, and you, you have to have an audience that supports that, that initiative, and comes out and sees the concerts and makes the events and experience that that stays with people and is relevant and becomes part of the community fabric. And three, you, you need to, to be able to fundraise enough money to, to keep everything, um, working so that plans are paid for in advance and, and, uh, and the organization can grow.

    Speaker 3 (00:04:54):

    And Stratford, uh, it does all of those things, even though it's a town of, uh, with 32,000, I think is what Stratford has now. Um, I really credit our audiences a lot out of our last, uh, we, we've done 13, you know, sort of before, during, and just after Covid our 13, uh, presentations we did at a Avondale. Uh, we had, we had completely sold out. Nine of them, two of them were, um, at capacity except for only a few tickets. And, uh, and then during Covid, uh, we had to do split shows for safety, for spacing people out. So, um, uh, so we didn't have a single sold out show, but, um, it, it's, audiences have really, really been wonderful. And I've loved meeting them and we, we love performing for them, especially coming out of Covid, those first looking out on a full a Avondale church was just absolutely warmed at our hearts. It really gave us a lot of our spirit back, and it was, it was great.

    Speaker 2 (00:06:00):

    Now, working in the arts, uh, uh, world in Canada, I is challenging for any organization. So the fact that this orchestra has been around now launching is 18th season, is that, uh, something to be proud of for Stratford?

    Speaker 3 (00:06:14):

    I think so most, there's not that many, um, orchestras in Canada that are still really thriving, that aren't what, what I suppose we call heritage orchestras, you know, that are coming up to their 100th anniversary. Uh, in the case of Vancouver here, we're, we're 104 years old now, um, because that is, that comes out of the time, um, just after the first World War when many Canadian orchestras were founded. Many times Canadians forget that we're older than the NHL or older than cfo. We, we've been around Regina Symphony 110 years old. Um, but not a lot of orchestras have started in this millennium and got their, their footing and built an audience. And, um, I think we are, we are really unique in this country that way. For sure.

    Speaker 2 (00:07:07):

    Before we, before we get into the, the season at hand, which launches October 1st, um, I wanna talk to you a little bit about your own background. We're very, um, uh, privileged to have you as the conductor of the Stratford Symphony, but you do a lot of other things. So tell me, I I, you grew up on the prairies, right?

    Speaker 3 (00:07:25):

    Yeah, that's right. I grew up, uh, in, in Saskatchewan, in Saskatoon. And my family also has a, a farm a few hours north of there. And, um, and that's where I first learned music and, um, got into symphony orchestras and began performing, uh, a lot. And now my family still live in Saskatchewan, but I, I went off to a, a, um, special music high school in the United States. And then I went to conservatory studies in the United States at the Curtis Institute in Philadelphia. And I lived in New York for a little bit and then, uh, came back, studied in Toronto, in Ontario, set my base there, began working and then have since moved to Regina, I have degrees in composition and violin performance, and also, uh, of course in conducting. And, um, yeah, I have a very multi, uh, angled career. I write a lot of music. Yeah,

    Speaker 2 (00:08:21):

    Go ahead. So vi violin was your first instrument or piano?

    Speaker 3 (00:08:25):

    Uh, violin first, then piano. So I, I tell people I play the violin and the piano. I did play violin professionally for, uh, for a, uh, about a decade until I really shifted my focus into conducting.

    Speaker 2 (00:08:40):

    So why did you do that? What is it about conducting? Cuz I, I'm not sure if people really understand what's involved. People always say it looks like fun standing up there, you get all the accolades, you get to talk, you wave the baton, you bow, you come in, everybody applauds <laugh>. How much work, How much work is it, What exactly does a conductor do it, Why were you drawn to that?

    Speaker 3 (00:09:02):

    Well, I, um, I think out of my composition background, I've always, uh, I've always collected a lot of scores. Like I, I, I study as a score is what a conductor reads. It's the, it's the sheet music that has everybody's part on it all at once. And, um, so the whole design and the layout and all the, the way a piece of music is created, uh, the, the whole diagram is the score. And, um, I began collecting these when I was very, very young and, uh, more than most of my violin friends and colleagues. Uh, I spent a lot of time with scores and, um, I, I received and I loved orchestras and I was writing a lot of orchestra music, and there were a few people in my background that we're very, um, encouraging to me, uh, to, to try conducting. They, they thought I would have a good temperament for it, and that, that my actual passions were, um, very much a part of the preparation for being a conductor.

    Speaker 3 (00:10:11):

    When you see conductors in an audience, uh, as an audience member, rather, uh, you sort of get to see the nice icing on the cake. Conductors really use their skills in rehearsals, um, and in planning to, to make sure that you have music that pushes people's capabilities, but yet keeps them in a place where they can really bring in a, in a, an a plus performance. Um, so it's, it's very, very odd experience to be making music when you're actually the only one on stage not making a sound, but your presence is very, very much involved in, in what is happening. And, uh, so I will come in and meet the orchestra, um, almost a week before the performances for the public happen. And we go through the, the pieces and, uh, you work on the sound and how it's balanced, how you would like the phrase to unfold the shape of everything. You also have to be, um, you have to make the orchestra, uh, as, as fine and instrument as you can. Everything must be in tune. The rhythms must really be exact and lined up. You, you, you make the tempo. Tempo in music is vital, like the actual exact speed that things happen unfold, how the, how the breadth of the piece is. And um, and it's a lot of communicating with musicians and, uh, making sure they're comfortable and helping them do their best in performance.

    Speaker 2 (00:11:46):

    And cause only you have, you only, you have the ear to listen to everybody. Individual musicians only hear what they can hear around them. They're relying on you to, to interpret how the whole orchestra is sound, right?

    Speaker 3 (00:11:58):

    Yes. And, and so you, you want to have a relationship with your players so that they trust you with that very important task. Um, players, uh, will get their parts, their individual parts, and they learn them very, very well. And then we all come together and play the play it. And it often comes out like a garden that's just <laugh> a little bit overgrown, you know, and you, you have to just, uh, back some things off, bring some, you have to, uh, rehearse the architecture and structure of the piece so that people know the function of what they're playing. And, um, and you, you have to honor the intentions of the, the composer who wrote the piece of music. And that requires a lot of interpretation. Like being a theater director, you're not actually on stage performing, but you can deliver a line many different ways. And it in the context of a scene of a play that really <laugh> can make a make or break it, you know? And so, uh, sometimes composers give you a lot of information, sometimes they don't. You have to rely on your knowledge of that style of music and, um, and try to do that in a way that's engaging for everybody so that the three hours pass in a way that's informative and growing and things are getting better and people, uh, are encouraged and ready to get out there and play their best.

    Speaker 2 (00:13:17):

    Now, in addition to conducting this, the Stratford Symphony Orchestra, you're also involved in scoring films and education for children. Tell us a little bit about what else you do besides Stratford, cuz it's only six concerts a year, plus the rehearsal time that you talked about.

    Speaker 3 (00:13:33):

    That's right. So for conductors, we're, we're usually booked by the week. And, uh, I'll do six weeks in Stratford and I, I do about 15 or 16 weeks. I, in other cities, just doing guest conducting basically what I do at Stratford, but I only go to, to, uh, Victoria say, for example, for a week, or Saskatoon or Regina or, or wherever it may be. Uh, so I keep a guest conducting, um, uh, schedule as, uh, as full as I can manage. I, I also have commissions as a composer, as you had said. I've, I've done scores for two feature length films in the, in recent years. Uh, and I write a lot of chamber music and orchestral pieces and I do a lot of arranging and, uh, which I'm doing right now, for example, I'm arranging the Rocky Horror Picture Show for the Vancouver Symphony, cuz it was written for a rock band.

    Speaker 3 (00:14:24):

    But they need something that an ADPs orchestra can place, so they call someone like me. And, um, I believe very much in music education. And, um, I was very fortunate to, to get, to learn from some very inspiring individuals as, as I was coming up. And I, uh, I make my time available at the, the VSO School of Music, where I lead a few of their, uh, high school aged ensembles and, um, and, and just lets me be in a position to really help nurture some talent and, and share with people the joy of making music in an ensemble. Um, I I, I find it one of the great things we do as, as a species play music together of any kind. And, um, when, when you can get 18, 19, 20, 25 young people who are, who are good and committed and, and really challenge them, it's a, it's really a thrill.

    Speaker 3 (00:15:32):

    And that's something I value very much. So. I'm the music director, uh, of, uh, two orchestras at the Vancouver Symphony School of Music, which is a organization attached to the Symphony's, got its own building, um, here in Vancouver. And I worked with the Dale Youth orchestras for a long time in Toronto. And we have a new youth orchestra at the Saskatoon, uh, sorry, at the, uh, at sso. Uh, our, our new youth orchestra just started this past season. And, uh, I hope to work to build it up to a formidable, uh, ensemble that will hopefully perform side by side with, with the professional orchestra. That would be a dream,

    Speaker 2 (00:16:10):

    Uh, perhaps like a farm team for larger orchestras. These are young people who can move up in the ranks eventually to different orchestras.

    Speaker 3 (00:16:17):

    That's the idea. Yep. Right. Yeah. And, uh, so they're mostly at the stage where they haven't gone to a conservatory or a university yet to do their final training, but, but having been somebody with both myself and all of my work colleagues have gone through that, uh, that process in my case many times, uh, guidance is very, very important and good musical guidance, uh, can really stay with somebody for the rest of their lives. And that's, that's important for me.

    Speaker 2 (00:16:49):

    So I've seen you conduct both for children and for a general audience, and I guess what I would say is you like to have fun when you're up there, take the elitism and the stuffiness out of classical music. Is, is that, uh, uh, would that a fair assessment?

    Speaker 3 (00:17:06):

    Yeah, I, I would say so. I, um, I've worked as an assistant back in my up and coming days for, for many, many different types of conductors. And I, you have to the, you you approach your profession with a lot of your own characteristics in it. And, um, some people like wearing tuxedos. I don't particularly, I do though it's part of the job <laugh>, but I like to talk to the audience. I like to, to welcome them and, uh, uh, share, share with them some insights that I've gained about these pieces that we're gonna play what they mean to me. Um, or just share stories about them, make the concert experience, uh, not, I mean, a ritual, that's one that you should enjoy taking part in. It's on all levels, um, especially in, depending on where you are. I suppose it, it's a little different maybe if you're performing in Vienna, where the audiences have seen this production of filio 16 times.

    Speaker 3 (00:18:17):

    Um, but for, for many people in Stratford, we've had an orchestra now going on 18 years. So, um, you know, a lot of the pieces will be playing, will be the first time they've been played in Stratford. So, uh, I think it's important to set that up. And, and I, I do, I feel more fueled and energetic and really ready to perform when I've connected with people first. Um, and that's just me. I, I don't, some people need to, there's famous stories of conductors, you know, that would stay in their limousine until the orchestra was tuning and the stage manager would have to tell them, and they'd just walk right outta the door, right onto stage. That's how nervous they'd get. I'm not that way. I, I leave my dressing room door open and like to just check in with everybody right before, and I really like to, to see that audience and take them in a little bit. Uh, so that's, I I would say a little bit more fun than formal.

    Speaker 2 (00:19:12):

    Well, we've had a challenging, uh, couple of years, two or three years because of Covid, so everyone's excited to, uh, uh, see the, the new season, the in person concerts at a Avondale church. Let's go through the, uh, the program that you've set up for the coming year. The premier is, uh, Saturday October 1st, the opening season, and you've got, uh, a selection with, uh, Schubert Devor Jack, and your own fanfare that you've composed. So tell us a little bit about the season opener and what to expect.

    Speaker 3 (00:19:45):

    Sure. So the season opener is, uh, gangbusters as far as, uh, um, classical repertoire goes. Uh, the big feature piece in the program is devor jack's, just, uh, massive cello concerto and B minor. Uh, our soloist for that will be a young Israeli Canadian cellist named Daniel has, he's a big Juilliard guy, graduated, He's playing all over with orchestras, uh, in Canada in the us. And, uh, I think it will be fabulous. It's, it's, uh, a formidable concerto for the soloist, um, to play. It's very challenging and virtuosic. And, um, I'm really, really looking forward to that because it's such a monumental concerto. We chose for the sort of symphony only part of the program to be Schubert's Symphony number eight, which is, it's got a famous name and it's called the Unfinished Symphony. And that is because it's only two movements long and he, he never finished it.

    Speaker 3 (00:20:46):

    Um, so it's, it's pretty short. And to balance that program out, uh, I wrote a piece for my beloved Stratford Symphony Orchestra. Um, the, the, the print copy I'm looking at here doesn't have a title on it yet because I'm still trying to work on that, but my working title is Fan Fair for the Stratford Symphony Orchestra. It's a high energy, uh, piece. I tried to make it as exuberant as I can, and I used for it, Um, during Covid, when everything got locked down, uh, with the help of Ballen Rand, we filmed concerts, which we called SSO to go. And I thought at that time, why don't I write a little bit of theme music, you know, like they do for television, just for the opening credits. So I wrote a fanfare for our brass players, which is only about 20 seconds long,

    Speaker 2 (00:21:33):

    And we have that now. And let's, let's listen to that just, uh, while we're on that topic. So we'll play the Fanfare by William Rosen for the Stratford Symphony. So that's only an excerpt that was 20 seconds long or So, the, the full fanfare is going to be much more than a fanfare, I guess, is that right?

    Speaker 3 (00:22:19):

    It it is, yeah. It's got whole middle sections and lyrical parts. And so what I did is I, I, I, first of all, I made it for full symphony orchestra, not just the brass players. And I took sort of the first 15 seconds and uh, orchestrated it out, and then I wrote a whole five minute fantasy of, uh, of ups and downs and fasts and slows and everything you could imagine. And then I put the last five seconds on the end to kind of wrap it all up. And I really kind of hoped that for those audiences we had that really stayed with us and supported us by subscribing to those concerts that we, we sold online, that was a real lifeline for us. Um, my,

    Speaker 2 (00:22:59):

    I think you should call it, I think you should call it cuz of that, because of that you should call it, uh, a Stratford celebration because we're celebrating the return to live in person concerts and, uh, it's more than a fanfare, but a fanfare is celebratory, right. So I would call it a Stratford celebration by William Rosen got,

    Speaker 3 (00:23:23):

    Now

    Speaker 2 (00:23:24):

    I won't charge you for that

    Speaker 3 (00:23:26):

    <laugh>, but

    Speaker 2 (00:23:28):

    It is, it, it does have that celebratory feel and we are coming into 18th season in per, there's so, so much energy in the community right now for getting back in person and, uh, you've put together an amazing season. So I'll give that to you as, as a bonus, so you can have that <laugh> <laugh>. Well, thank you. Great. Before we move on to the, the next, uh, concert bill, I believe we have, uh, an excerpt of Daniel Haas playing the very number, um, that he's gonna be performing with the Stratford Symphony Devor Jack Cello Concerto in B Minor. That's right. Fantastic.

    Speaker 4 (00:29:24):

    Um,

    Speaker 1 (00:35:56):

    You're listening to the Stratford slice with Craig Thompson. Check out our website, the stratford slice.com, and be sure to subscribe. And now back to the show.

    Speaker 2 (00:36:09):

    So Bill, that was Daniel Haas, uh, little excerpt of what people will hear on October 1st.

    Speaker 3 (00:36:14):

    That's right. That's Devor X's monumental cello concerto and being minor. And we are really looking forward to having Daniel join us. I think he's a wonderful artist and musician, and our audiences will be thrilled.

    Speaker 2 (00:36:26):

    So next up November 12th, you've got, uh, a salute to Ludvig von Beethoven as your, uh, theme for that concert.

    Speaker 3 (00:36:35):

    That's right. So Poor v Beethoven, uh, had his 250th anniversary interrupted by Covid and, uh, <laugh>. So we, we had very carefully planned this program and wanted to present it to people. It features, um, the Canadian Ukrainian pianist, Sophia Mik, uh, playing Beethoven's fourth piano concerto. It's in G Major. It's my favorite of Beethoven's five piano concertos. It's absolutely, uh, beautiful from beginning to end. And, um, and it's, it's a big concerto too. And the only other piece on that program is another monumental Beethoven masterpiece to use all of the big, uh, words. It's his third symphony in E flat called the aka. And aka is, um, it's thought of by many as the greatest symphony ever written. It's, if you, um, everything about it is, is just epic and grand. It's a big symphony. The development sections are just full, full and rich. Those opening two chords, uh, have been said to be the two pillars that, that open the gates to romanticism.

    Speaker 3 (00:37:49):

    And if you think of the Osro Hungarian, I'm sorry, the Ostro Germanic symphonic tradition of heightened and Mozart, if viewed from that lens, looking forward, uh, Beethoven has just turned everything up to 11 in this symphony. Uh, its finale is this massive theme in variations, uh, has this unbelievable funeral march for a second movement, which was played, uh, at John f Kennedy's funeral in the 1960s. And, um, uh, and the first movement is, is, uh, all of Beethoven's innovations and, and his drive. And that the, that spirit that is everything we share in humanity is what he was going for in this revolutionary work. And so, um, I can't wait. It's a favorite of mine. It's a favorite of the orchestra. It's been on our bucket list for a long time. So I think the audiences will pick up on all of that en energy. And this is our, uh, our presentation of, uh, uh, of the best of Beethoven for his.

    Speaker 2 (00:38:54):

    And then, and then we have to wait till January 1st, which is a, uh, traditional Stratford Symphony New Year's Day concert. So what if we got in store for, uh, January 1st, 2023? Hard to believe. January 21st, 2023.

    Speaker 3 (00:39:12):

    I know where to

    Speaker 2 (00:39:13):

    Last time I checked. It was still 2019.

    Speaker 3 (00:39:16):

    I know, I know. Um, this is, uh, our annual, um, ese traditional New Year's Day concert, as they do in Vienna. They have a concert during the day to welcome in the new year. So all of the music is, uh, bubbly and fun. Uh, uh, we are joined by Katherine and Mark Gardner, the soprano baritone, um, who are from Stratford. Um, what do we have on here? We have beautiful arias from corn gold, lahar Johan Strauss. We, um, try to make this concert, it's v Vietnamese, but we stratford it up a little bit. Uh, but we still will end with the traditional encores, the RedSky march, the beautiful blue Dan. Um, and, uh, Katherine and Mark will sing duets and solos, and it's a fun concert in the afternoon. It's not long. Uh, I'll talk between all the pieces. It's one of those concerts that has a whole bunch of really fantastic memorable, beautiful bond bonds and, and some, some arias that are absolutely heart wrenching <laugh>. Um, but not to be missed. It always sells out. And, uh, I'm really trusting it will this year too. I think

    Speaker 2 (00:40:30):

    Four weeks later, I, I guess it's tied to Robbie Burns Day, but you have the annual Celtic celebration. And before we have a discussion about that, let's play a little clip from the, uh, guest artists. Those were the Clefs of Mohar. Did I get that pronounced right? Bill

    Speaker 3 (00:44:13):

    Clefs of Mower?

    Speaker 2 (00:44:14):

    Yeah. Yeah. That's your, uh, tell us a little bit about them and how you've planned that concert.

    Speaker 3 (00:44:21):

    Well, we have, they're a, they're a fabulous, um, seven piece band out of, uh, the Kitchener area. And they, they kind of, they play traditional Celtic music and they mix it with jazz and rock and roll, and they're quite, um, quite accomplished band. And they bring a lot of fun to their shows and a lot of musicality. Um, we'll, we'll be joining them to do a bunch of numbers, including Danny Boy and, uh, and original pieces. They have a, a song called The Cliffs, which is really, uh, fantastic and that's gonna sound great, having this band out front with a whole symphony orchestra behind, uh, the Stratford Symphony will also offer traditional, um, Celtic uh, classics. And, um, so we

    Speaker 2 (00:45:08):

    January 28th, right?

    Speaker 3 (00:45:09):

    That's January 28th. Yep, That's right. And so those shows are always, they're a ton of fun. And we, we just had one and people can get up on their feet and clap along. It's, it's very, very, we'll still be wearing, well, a lot of the orchestra wear kilts and Celtic attire, but

    Speaker 2 (00:45:26):

    And you do too. Yeah.

    Speaker 3 (00:45:27):

    Yeah. I, I do too sometimes. I like to really get into the spirit of it. And so it's one of those shows. He's got a lot of spirit to it. It's not a formal classical show, although it involves an orchestra.

    Speaker 2 (00:45:37):

    Yeah.

    Speaker 3 (00:45:38):

    Yeah.

    Speaker 2 (00:45:39):

    So skipping forward to March 4th, uh, we've got a double bill of Broms and, uh, Devor Jacks back on the, uh, the program for this concert.

    Speaker 3 (00:45:48):

    Yeah, he's lucky this year. He's got a, got a few, uh, while we're joined by Sarah Pratt, who's going to play Bross Violin Concerto, um, which is, uh, like the Dvorack Cello concerto. Just a big piece, very, very, uh, involved for the soloist and the orchestra. Uh, and it will be on the first half Divor, Jack's eight Symphony is his most song filled symphony. It has seven hit tunes in the first movement alone. Um, it's, uh, I love it. It's in g major, really, really bright key, fantastic finale with just fanfares and drums and, and, uh, it has this great, uh, sl um, kind of, uh, uh, in the middle movements, uh, doom key. Uh, it's a kind of sl dance, so not so ese and classical. It's a, it's got a bit more swagger and swing to it. Uh, I love it. And, uh, that, that concerts, again, a lot of players have that on their bucket list too. We've been dying to play together for so long. We have a couple bucket list pieces this year, so the players are just like, Oh, thank goodness. Yeah.

    Speaker 2 (00:47:02):

    And so, and the grand finale is May 27th. You've got an organ symphony. Now, I don't think you've made use of the organ too often in a Avondale church. You used to use it at, when you were playing at Knox, uh, Presbyterian Church. But you'll be using the sanctuary organ at Avondale, or is there an organ coming in for that concert?

    Speaker 3 (00:47:22):

    No, we will use the, the sanctuary organ. It's tuned to the right pitches. We've got it all tested out, and it can make enough volume, uh, to play Saal Symphony number three, which is called the Organ Symphony. Now, the thing about the Organ Symphony is normally when this piece is performed, it's in a huge concert hole because, uh, it's, it's big. We have to hire half the other orchestras in Southern Ontario to come in and fill out our ranks. This will be the biggest presentation of personnel anyway that we've ever had on that stage. We're gonna have to extend it. It has two pianos and, and then the full pipe organ, uh, like four trumpets and five trombones and six horns. It's, it's just massive and celebratory. And at the end of that symphony, uh, when it comes back to sea major and, and all the fanfares are playing with the, with the organ just blasting away, um, audiences to hear something in such an intimate space like a Avondale, uh, is, is a real treat, uh, to be that close to, to that much sound. You'll get to feel like the conductor while you're sitting in the, uh, in the audience. And we wanted to really wrap up the, the season in a grand way. And, um, and we actually have in our venue in Oregon that can, that can handle it. So, uh, so we are And

    Speaker 2 (00:48:44):

    Your and your guest is, um, Owen Spicer.

    Speaker 3 (00:48:47):

    That's right. Owen Spicer will be playing Oregon with us, and we also have two short concertos on that program featuring, uh, members of our orchestra. Jonathan Rosewell will play the, uh, cost concerto for tuba. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, it's a great piece. You don't often see a tuba player, but Jonathan, uh, is a magnificent tuba player, and he will, he will carry you on a journey with his musicianship, I guarantee. And, uh, we will also be featuring Gene ards, uh, Canadian composer, uh, music on a quiet song, which will feature our principle flute player at Laurel Swindon.

    Speaker 2 (00:49:26):

    Well, I love organ music. And, uh, we have a clip of, uh, Owen Spicer, uh, playing in the organ. So that's the very talented, uh, organist, Owen Spicer, who is the guest soloist on the finale concert of the Stratford Symphony Orchestra on May 27th, 2023. Well, it sounds like an amazing, uh, program you've got lined up for the, the 18th season of the Stratford Symphony.

    Speaker 3 (00:53:33):

    Well, it's our most ambitious season yet, and, uh, I know we're up for it. And so I, I really hope people come out and, uh, share the music with us. I can't wait to get back to a regular season and making music for our, for our public and seeing our musicians again, and it'll be great.

    Speaker 2 (00:53:54):

    Where do you think the orchestra is going, uh, from here? 18 seasons is quite remarkable. Do you think, uh, because we're in, in Stratford, which is a very well known brand as an arch and arts and culture, town arts and culture community, do you think that elevates, uh, the, the orchestra somewhat that we could be, uh, you know, the, the, uh, big orchestra in a small town, uh, that has, you know, tentacles outside of the region?

    Speaker 3 (00:54:25):

    Uh, well, that would be my hope for sure. I think that the potential there is, is magnificent and, uh, we've, you know, had had seasons to really find our own and learn how to play together. And we're, we are definitely in a, uh, expansion mindset, I think. And so, uh, I have great hopes for the Stratford Symphony be those recording projects, uh, um, extended seasons, outreach concerts, uh, run out concerts to other communities, and, uh, filming and broadcasting.

    Speaker 2 (00:55:00):

    Uh, I think I've shared this, I think I've shared this funny story with you before, but I believe we posted, uh, one of the concerts, um, on YouTube at one point. I can't remember which one, but you know how YouTube operates. They have these algorithms that check to see if you are violating any international copyright. And I can't remember which piece it was, but YouTube came back and said, uh, you are using a piece without permission from the Hungarian Symphony Orchestra. <laugh>

    Speaker 3 (00:55:33):

    <laugh>,

    Speaker 2 (00:55:36):

    Please take it down. And then we had to sort of say, Oh, no, no, that's not the Hungarian Symphony Orchestra. Uh, it is the Stratford Symphony Orchestra playing the same number. <laugh>

    Speaker 3 (00:55:47):

    <laugh>. See, well, that's good. That's,

    Speaker 2 (00:55:50):

    You're, you're up there with the, uh, at least YouTube recognizes you as a international caliber orchestra. Right.

    Speaker 3 (00:55:57):

    Love it. I love

    Speaker 2 (00:55:58):

    It. But speaking of international caliber, I don't wanna let you go yet because there's a couple of other stories that I know you can tell us. One thing unique about Stratford is that Stratford is a magnet for people, not just in the theater world, but in the general arts and culture, uh, community. And we have at our fingertips some of the most incredible and acclaimed musicians, operatic performers and people who wouldn't be out of place in New York or the West end of London, England or, or wherever. But they happen to choose place Stratford as a place to live. So tell us, uh, how that has benefited the orchestra.

    Speaker 3 (00:56:39):

    Well, it has actually, uh, quite substantially in, in October, 2021, just about a year ago, we had, uh, and this happens to orchestras, but this is what's hard about being in a more regional area. We had a singer, a baritone for our concert who was the featured soloist, uh, got covid positive and couldn't come. And the test came back the morning of the concert, which was also being filmed, uh, for live, uh, SEL cast. And so, um, we, we, uh, put our heads together and said, We need a baritone that can sing this. And it was corn gold, and it setti a whole bunch of very operatic repertoire. And, um, one of our, uh, uh, artistic advisory committee members said, Oh, we should just see if Philip Adds can do it. Uh, and Philip adds, You should know, has sung in opera houses all over Europe and had just done a whole run of Don Giovanni's at the, um, Mozart, Don Giovanni at the, uh, um, uh, the Castle <inaudible> in France, in the Royal Theater in Versaci.

    Speaker 3 (00:57:54):

    And he was, uh, so, and Andrew had his cell phone number, gave him a call, and he said, Yeah, sure. I'm just doing my groceries. Uh, let me drop up these off often home and I'll come right over. And he picked up his tuxedo and he was over in about 20 minutes, and he said, I don't need to rehearse these. I've ung these many, many times. And he gave such a magnificent performance, it just lifted the whole thing up. He was perfect. And, um, I even had to turn around to the audience, you know, that day. And I had to say, you know, in New York or Toronto, uh, you can get away with this, but usually not in a town like Stratford. So,

    Speaker 2 (00:58:29):

    And we pulled him out of the grocery line at the local supermarket that he was just buying his, uh, zucchini or whatever, and an hour later he was on stage singing, uh, soloist solo.

    Speaker 3 (00:58:39):

    Well, I, I would say about 50 minutes later, he was on stage in front of cameras and an orchestra and, and, but very professional, you know, he, you'd never have guessed that we hadn't booked him months in advance. So, uh, that was quite the day. And that's,

    Speaker 2 (00:58:54):

    So as the conductor as the conductor, you must have been sweating bullets, but it's another example of how a conductor has to sometimes pull rabbits out of hats, right?

    Speaker 3 (00:59:03):

    Oh, yeah, no, you're, you're part of the production team when you're a conductor. You have to, I mean, the show must go on, as we say. And so in that case, you're like, We could substitute this piece for that piece. We could have a quick rehearsal back here for that. Maybe we, you know, what you have to scenario wise very quickly. And, uh, a bit of advice I was given by one of my mentors, uh, he bramwell Toby actually, who sadly just passed away, uh, Bramwell had told me, You rule number one, young man is Grace under fire. And he's right, he's put on a lot of shows. And, uh, that's, that's part of a part of a hat that you gotta wear

    Speaker 2 (00:59:44):

    And then not take yourself so seriously and, and find the humor in, in some of these things. Right?

    Speaker 3 (00:59:50):

    That's right. That's right.

    Speaker 2 (00:59:52):

    So, well, Bill, it's great, it's great to have you on the, the Stratford Slice podcast, and we look forward to seeing you in person in just a, a few weeks.

    Speaker 3 (01:00:02):

    Thank you, Craig. I look forward to seeing you too, and thanks for having me on.

    Speaker 2 (01:00:05):

    That was Bill Rosen, the music director and the principal conductor of the Stratford Symphony Orchestra. You can find out more information about the Stratford Symphony on the Stratford Symphony website, www.stratfordsymphony.ca. I'm Craig Thompson, and this has been the Stratford slice.

    Speaker 1 (01:00:25):

    You've been listening to the Stratford Slice with Craig Thompson. For more episodes, check out our website, the stratford slice.com, and be sure to subscribe. The Stratford slice is produced by Ballon Ran Entertainment, Southwestern Ontario's number one digital media studio. If you have a great story to tell and want to be on the podcast, please reach out to us through our website, the stratford slice.com.

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